Sundering with Two Weapons?

[Sims]

Kind of a what-if question but say I had Perfect Two-Weapon fighting and Improved Sunder. Does that mean I can make 2 sundering attempts?

[Greenish]

One sunder attempt per attack. Obviously, having Perfect TWF gives you more attacks on a full attack, that you can use to try sundering.

[Siosilvar]

You can make as many Sunder attempts as you have attacks to make them with.

[HunterOfJello]

You can do the multiple sunders, unfortunately the sunders won't be as efficient. Using a two handed weapon to sunder gives a +4 and using a light weapon gives a -4, so your attempts are going to be weaker with two weapons than with a single two-handed weapon.

Also, since you have to use a slashing or bludgeoning weapon to do a sunder, you can't use a Rapier or Spiked Chain to sunder with if you were using Weapon Finesse (which often goes along with Two-Weapon fighting).

[Sims]

Oh, well thanks guys! I guess I should take Monkey Grip and Quick Draw then.

[Greenish]

Oh, well thanks guys! I guess I should take Monkey Grip and Quick Draw then.

Monkey Grip doesn't do what you think it does.

[Sims]

Monkey Grip doesn't do what you think it does.

Really? I was thinking it could let me have a large size category weapon (giving me a +4) and it could be 2 handed (another +4) stacked with the feat (improved sunder +4)

Am I wrong? If so, please tell me what to do. I'm still kinda a n00b.

[Greenish]

Really? I was thinking it could let me have a large size category weapon (giving me a +4) and it could be 2 handed (another +4) stacked with the feat (improved sunder +4)

Having large-sized weapons doesn't give any bonus to sunder, and Monkey Grip doesn't allow you to use a two-handed weapon with one hand.

[Edit]: You are talking about D&D 3.5, right?

[HunterOfJello]

Strongarm Bracers allow you to do what people often think Monkey grip allows you to do, but that still doesn't help your sundering. It will, however, improve your damage some.

You don't get a bonus for using a two-handed weapon unless you're holding it in two hands.

The one feat that would improve your sundering would be Weapon Proficiency: Goliath Greathammer. The hammer does 1d12 damage as a medium weapon, 3d6 as a large weapon and it has a x4 crit multiplier. It also gives the wielder a +2 bonus on opposed attack rolls when sundering weapons or shields.

The Combat Brute feat would also be good if you sunder often.

[Sims]

Having large-sized weapons doesn't give any bonus to sunder, and Monkey Grip doesn't allow you to use a two-handed weapon with one hand.

[Edit]: You are talking about D&D 3.5, right?

Yes I am on 3.5
But my goal wasn't to wield a large size weapon in 1 hand. I was gonna scrap the two weapon sunder idea, and just use Quick Draw to a large (adamantine)Great Axe.

[Greenish]

Yes I am on 3.5
But my goal wasn't to wield a large size weapon in 1 hand. I was gonna scrap the two weapon sunder idea, and just use Quick Draw to a large (adamantine)Great Axe.

Well, Monkey Grip is a trap, it gives a couple of more damage for -2 penalty to attack (and, as noted, doesn't improve sundering).

Quick Draw can be replicated with 300 gp weapon crystal (least crystal of return, MIC).

Note though that by sundering, you're destroying your own loot.

[AslanCross]

Sundering is like poisons: Impractical for players, but a lot of fun for DMs.

OP: If you do want to take Improved Sunder, check out Combat Brute from Complete Warrior. You can get some mileage out of that feat (although Improved Bull Rush and Shock Trooper are still strictly better).

[HunterOfJello]

Sundering is like poisons: Impractical for players, but a lot of fun for DMs.

Haha. Pretty much.


In a campaign where the PCs are fighting mostly humanoids or hydras, then sundering can be an excellent tactic. If you can get an Adamantite weapon, then you can sunder apart an enemy's melee weapon, ranged weapon, shield, spell components pouch, quiver or any other important object on their person. This can be a great way to disable an opponent in a single turn and render them useless for the rest of a battle.

However, if you're fighting against all sorts of monsters as enemies, then sundering targets can quickly become non-existent.

[Morquard]

Disadvantage of sundering:
Instead of looting the yummy +5 Sword of Dragon-Extermination that would come in very handy for the dragon endboss you now have a couple of non-magical broken sword pieces.

[Popertop]

Advantage of smart sundering: You don't sunder the obviously magical loot. Sunder stuff your party doesn't need/care about.

[AslanCross]

Advantage of smart sundering: You don't sunder the obviously magical loot. Sunder stuff your party doesn't need/care about.

I do agree with this, but sometimes it isn't clear which. Either one has the wizard cast Detect Magic, or ask the DM to describe if the weapons are glowing (1/3 of magical weapons do glow).

[Flickerdart]

Is your opponent named "Goblin" and wielding "an axe"? Break it. Is your opponent "Gorgoroth the Unyielding" wielding a "massive blade as long as he is tall carved with pulsing black runes"? Keep it.

[Psyren]

Binders and Psywars are great at sundering also. A Binder can bind Aym as early as 1st-level, getting both Improved Sunder for free and dealing double-damage to objects. Psywars can take the Destruction Mantle (also getting Imp. Sunder for free), then subtract 4 hardness on a special hit, and finally manifest Expansion to really pound the item in question.

Is your opponent named "Goblin" and wielding "an axe"? Break it. Is your opponent "Gorgoroth the Unyielding" wielding a "massive blade as long as he is tall carved with pulsing black runes"? Keep it.

The problem is that your anti-sundering build is now useless against Gorgoroth (unless you were smart and picked a melee class that wasn't a one-trick pony, like a Psywar or KotSS )

[nightwyrm]

Is your opponent named "Goblin" and wielding "an axe"? Break it. Is your opponent "Gorgoroth the Unyielding" wielding a "massive blade as long as he is tall carved with pulsing black runes"? Keep it.

The problem with this is that once PCs pass a certain level, it's more efficient to just kill humanoids that aren't important enough to have magic weapons.

[Flickerdart]

I'm not saying Sunder is worth a damn, I'm saying you can usually tell what loot is worth keeping.

[agentnone]

Katanas give an inate bonus to Sundering. If you do not take the Exotic Weapon Proficiency to use them, you have to use them with 2-hands and I believe you don't get the Sundering bonus. However, take the EWP Feat and you can use them one-handed and get the bonus to Sunder. Wield two of them for a penalty to hit, but you also get a decent amount of bonuses to Sundering. I haven't looked at them in a while, so my information may be a little off, but the gist of it is the Katana gives an added bonus to Sundering if you take the Exotic Weapon Feat.

[DeltaEmil]

Since when do katanas give a bonus to sundering attempts? They're just renamed bastard swords, aren't they?

[Greenish]

Since when do katanas give a bonus to sundering attempts? They're just renamed bastard swords, aren't they?

That's it. I'm sick of all this "Masterwork Bastard Sword" bull excerment that's going on in the d20 system right now. Katanas deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that.

And so forth…

[woodenbandman]

Disarm is better than sundering, and disarm is really bad.

[agentnone]

Since when do katanas give a bonus to sundering attempts? They're just renamed bastard swords, aren't they?

No, I'm pretty sure they get a bonus to sundering attempts. But you have to have the Exotic Weapon Proficency Feat with them to get it. I can't access any of the SRD pages or anything right now as I'm on my work computer and the sites are blocked. Though if memory serves me right, they also have a different damage rating and crit range. It's been a few months since I've looked at them. Wanted to play a Paladin in a friend's campaign that was going to be a sunder-monster himself. I'm trying to look through PDF versions of books I have to see if I can find it. If I come across it I'll post the stats and description for everyone.

[DeltaEmil]

You must have remembered this in some kind of third-party source, because in any official D&D-supplement and rulebook, a katana is only a renamed bastard sword (sometimes already masterwork quality), and the exotic weapon proficiency only makes it that you don't get a penalty of -4 when wielding it with one hand, as is written in the SRD

You might have mixed up something, when whoever did that trick wielded the weapon two-handed (which you also can do with any other one-handed weapon), but for any sundering purpose, katanas (or bastard swords in that case) are suck-tastic weapons that do nothing extraordinarily.

[agentnone]

You must have remembered this in some kind of third-party source, because in any official D&D-supplement and rulebook, a katana is only a renamed bastard sword (sometimes already masterwork quality), and the exotic weapon proficiency only makes it that you don't get a penalty of -4 when wielding it with one hand, as is written in the SRD

You might have mixed up something, when whoever did that trick wielded the weapon two-handed (which you also can do with any other one-handed weapon), but for any sundering purpose, katanas (or bastard swords in that case) are suck-tastic weapons that do nothing extraordinarily.

Nah, I read it on an SRD site a couple months back. We don't use 3rd party material in our group so it couldn't have come from there. I'm really stumped now. Have no idea where I read it. I'll try to find the source and post it here. Though it'll be awhile, can't access the SRD sites right now.

[DeltaEmil]

That's what the SRD is saying about bastard swords

Sword, Bastard

A bastard sword is too large to use in one hand without special training; thus, it is an exotic weapon. A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon.

And this are the stats of a bastard sword

One-Handed Melee Weapons
Sword, bastard 35 gp 1d8 1d10 19-20/×2 — 6 lb. Slashing

There is absolutely nothing that gives it any kind of advantage when sundering.

[agentnone]

I know how a Bastard Sword works. I'm jsut saying I read somewhere about a Katana as an actual weapon that gives a bonus to sunder attemptes. But you can only benefit from the bonus if you take the Exotic Weapon Proficiency. Like I said, I'll try to find it cuz you, and myself, got me all sorts of curious now. I know I read it somewhere cuz I was going to make a Paladin and use my Human bonus Feat to take the Exotic Weapon feat. I'll try to do some looking and see what I can find.

[Greenish]

I'm jsut saying I read somewhere about a Katana as an actual weapon that gives a bonus to sunder attemptes.

Well, DMG page 145 says that it's just a more expensive MW bastard sword. OA page 71 says katana is a masterwork bastard sword.