Best way to approach one's DM

[WarKitty]

Ok so this is more about out of character stuff than in character. Simply put, there's one or two features of the game that are significantly bothering several of the party members. One is a particular DMPC that's mutated out of control. The other is the introduction of a helm of opposite alignment.

What I'm not sure of is how to broach these issues. The DM considers his NPC balanced (high damage, low hp) and thinks the helm is a "great roleplaying opportunity." I'm not sure how to communicate that, while the game overall is fun, these particular aspects really need to go. Charisma was apparently my RL dump stat - every time I try to have a conversation with someone like that, it ends in major hurt feelings and broken relationships because I say something wrong. Ideas?

[Waker]

What are the particulars on the npc and the helm? Is the party expected to follow around the npc wherever he goes? Does the npc arrive as part of a deus ex machina that always saves the day? What exactly is the issue with him?
As for the helm, did someone put it on without realizing what it was? Or is there some other issue with it?

[Czin]

Ok so this is more about out of character stuff than in character. Simply put, there's one or two features of the game that are significantly bothering several of the party members. One is a particular DMPC that's mutated out of control. The other is the introduction of a helm of opposite alignment.

What I'm not sure of is how to broach these issues. The DM considers his NPC balanced (high damage, low hp) and thinks the helm is a "great roleplaying opportunity." I'm not sure how to communicate that, while the game overall is fun, these particular aspects really need to go. Charisma was apparently my RL dump stat - every time I try to have a conversation with someone like that, it ends in major hurt feelings and broken relationships because I say something wrong. Ideas?

Ask the rest of the group to accompany you and tell him your feelings about those two elements as nicely as possible but remember to be honest as the group informs the DM of their grievances.

[Marnath]

Well, I suppose there are better, more subtle ways but may I suggest straight-up telling him "we're really happy with your game, but (npc name) has to go, really none of us like him. Also, we'd really rather dump the helmet of opposite alignment."

But then, I've always been a fan of being direct, and that bothers some people.

[WarKitty]

What are the particulars on the npc and the helm? Is the party expected to follow around the npc wherever he goes? Does the npc arrive as part of a deus ex machina that always saves the day? What exactly is the issue with him?
As for the helm, did someone put it on without realizing what it was? Or is there some other issue with it?

For the DMPC: he's a sort of cousin of two of the party members. So he's not there all the time, except that one of our players took him over while waiting for her character to be resurrected, which ended up with him being stuck in the past with us. He's got a custom class that is frankly overpowered in our party.

The helm: Someone put it on without realizing what it was, yes.

[Xefas]

First step: Food. There must be food around. Have the two of you just hang out together at...Chipotle or something. Get a burrito. People are much more relaxed and receptive while they're eating. (Some more than others - an attractive stranger could probably coerce me into giving them one of my kidneys if they bought me a shawarma first)

Second step: Don't accuse. Don't say "Your Game"; just say "The Game". Don't say "These heinous blights that have been inflicted upon us"; stuff like that. You don't want them getting defensive.

Third step: Just out with it. Don't beat around the bush if you want things genuinely resolved. "I was talking with the other guys, and there are just a couple things that are messing with our otherwise phenomenal game. This Helm of Opposite Alignment business. It's not fun. At all. I respect your prerogative to throw difficult or harmful things at the player characters, but this is a game, and it's not fun for us. More guacamole?" something like that.

EDIT:

Ask the rest of the group to accompany you and tell him your feelings about those two elements as nicely as possible but remember to be honest as the group informs the DM of their grievances.

You obviously know your DM better than I do, but in this case, I think having everyone accompany you will just make it seem to the DM like he's being ganged up on. You don't want him feeling crowded.

[Waker]

I will say flat out that I dislike the helm, I think it's a badly made item. The fact that a mechanic forces your roleplaying (going so far to say you think going back to your old alignment is horrible) is just there to be an annoying DM. If the player who donned the helm wants to go back to his old alignment, he should talk to the DM about it.
As for the DMPC, if the character isn't actually doing anything to disrupt the game I see no issue with him. But if something about it is bothering the players, they should see if the DM will let the character go.

[Czin]

First step: Food. There must be food around. Have the two of you just hang out together at...Chipotle or something. Get a burrito. People are much more relaxed and receptive while they're eating. (Some more than others - an attractive stranger could probably coerce me into giving them one of my kidneys if they bought me a shawarma first)

Second step: Don't accuse. Don't say "Your Game"; just say "The Game". Don't say "These heinous blights that have been inflicted upon us"; stuff like that. You don't want them getting defensive.

Third step: Just out with it. Don't beat around the bush if you want things genuinely resolved. "I was talking with the other guys, and there are just a couple things that are messing with our otherwise phenomenal game. This Helm of Opposite Alignment business. It's not fun. At all. I respect your prerogative to throw difficult or harmful things at the player characters, but this is a game, and it's not fun for us. More guacamole?" something like that.

EDIT:

You obviously know your DM better than I do, but in this case, I think having everyone accompany you will just make it seem to the DM like he's being ganged up on. You don't want him feeling crowded.

The last person I called DM died in a car accident many months ago. He (and his two Co-DMs) was very authoritarian, but would relent if all of the players unanimously veto'd his actions. Since then, I've taken over his group and used his notes for the next campaign setting he was building (see the labor of love thread) to make the next campaign.

[WarKitty]

I will say flat out that I dislike the helm, I think it's a badly made item. The fact that a mechanic forces your roleplaying (going so far to say you think going back to your old alignment is horrible) is just there to be an annoying DM. If the player who donned the helm wants to go back to his old alignment, he should talk to the DM about it.
As for the DMPC, if the character isn't actually doing anything to disrupt the game I see no issue with him. But if something about it is bothering the players, they should see if the DM will let the character go.

It's not that it's disruptive as much as it's overpowered in a role that we already have PC's to fill. It's making some of the regular PC's feel obsolete, because he's doing their job so much better than they are.

[Waker]

It's not that it's disruptive as much as it's overpowered in a role that we already have PC's to fill. It's making some of the regular PC's feel obsolete, because he's doing their job so much better than they are.

Ok, that is an issue. You said the class was OP but you didn't present it that he was detracting from someone else's role. If that is the issue, you definitely need to present your complaints to the DM in a diplomatic way. The game is cooperative storytelling, the DM controls the world and the npcs while the players control the heroes (or villains.) It's fine to get some very limited help from NPCs but I always frown on having them tag along with a party, unless there is a shortage of players or something.
Remind the DM that he can get creative with the opposition you face, he doesn't need to play on both sides.

[Volos]

As a DM who has done terrible things to my players without realizing it, I have some advice to give. To clarify there were horrendous things I planned to do to my players, but it was the things that I thought were going to be fun that turned out to be terrible. My advice is this...

Be upfront and honest.
Most DMs don't want their players to fear them outside of the game. In game we're all about the terror and destruction, why else would we be DMs? But first and formost we're concerned with making the game fun for everyone. If you're honest with us, tell us what you like and what you don't, we can fix things to make it all fun again.

Let us know how it looked to you.
While this should be obvious, I think it needs to be said. As DMs, we see the game from a completely different angle. And if we've been DMing for long enough, that angle can be a full 180 from the perspective of the players. What we might think is fun for the group might turn out to be a nightmare for everyone involved. One good (or bad rather) example is a mini-adventure I ran for my group. I thought it would be fun to have the players in the middle of a small town that is dealing with an outbreak of Ergot in their local grain supply. (Basically a whole town tripping on LSD, and no this wasn't my idea. It was a published adventure by a 3rd party group) What was supposed to be alot of non-leathal damage and crowd control turned into a PvP battle that nearly killed everyone. I had so much fun with the chaos I forgot the players. Later I was approached by one of the players who was honest with me. Now I realize that making the party lose control of their character's or their character's identity isn't fun for anyone.

And finally, tell us what you do like about our game.
This isn't so much to save the Ego of the DM, but to remind us that we still run a decent or good game and that there are things we can do to keep the game fun. When we remove a game element we found important, it is common to feel lost and confused. If you show us what you like, we can focus more on situations or adventures like that and make the game enjoyable again.

[Coidzor]

You obviously know your DM better than I do, but in this case, I think having everyone accompany you will just make it seem to the DM like he's being ganged up on. You don't want him feeling crowded.

On the other hand, showing that there's a consensus and bringing someone more eloquent to bear on him might be worthwhile. edit: bringing everyone in on it though, probably a bit overboard, yeah.

[Swordguy]

There's two totally different problems here, and two totally different solutions.

The Helm of Opposite Alignment? Yeah, it may not be 'fun', but dealing with cursed items on occasion is an assumed risk of playing the game. It's no different than a trap, or rust monster, or disjunctions, or a higher-than-average CR critter, or similar. It's entirely an in-game problem (and there are some people who really do enjoy getting stuff that radically shifts their character's outlook - I play with a bunch of semi-professional actors and they love this stuff) and as such, you need to take care of it via in-game solutions FIRST. Suck it up, and go get the bloody thing off the person via the game mechanics. Then, and only then, once you've dealt with it in-game and the tempers have had a chance to cool, do you mention to the DM that forcing character shifts "may not be the sort of roleplay that the party is looking for". That will give the DM a chance to respond without feeling like he's being attacked. If you immediately go and yell that you aren't having fun and this needs to be fixed "right now", while the Helm is still an issue, the DM will simply see it as a challenge to his game, or you not wanting to have to deal with the IG hassle of removing it. As such, he'll either ignore you, get mad, or throw more stuff like that in to spite you. Which isn't helpful.

.........

Now, regarding the DMPC...that's an issue where you go straight to the DM before a session (not afterwards when everyone's tired and emotionally drained; this has a tendency to end badly) and present your objections to the DMPC. Let the DM tell his say - maybe the DMPC is there for an important plot point later on, and then will vanish. Great! Problem solved! Maybe the DMPC is there to get eaten or something. Again, great! If the DM is running the DMPC to simply fill a hole in the party composition, point out that you think you're being overshadowed, and if he could tone it back somewhat. Finally, if the DM is running the DMPC (as I do on occasion) simply because "it's the only way I ever get to play a persistent character - I've been DMing for you ungrateful bastards for 5 years straight now across 8 game systems without a break or even a 1-shot, and I want to bloody play!" (sorry, perhaps some repressed bitterness there...), then, well, the group can either let the DM play the DMPC, find a new group, or somebody else can suck it up and run a game.

But whatever you do, don't go to the DM and demand the DMPC be removed immediately. Give your objections, find out why the DMPC is there, and if the group wants the DMPC gone, then give the DM a few sessions to get rid of the DMPC in either a cool or logical manner. Don't force it to happen immediately like many people do ("You need to stop doing X right now or we aren't playing anymore"). Be flexible and give the DM a chance to do something about it once the issue has been brought up.

[WarKitty]

There's two totally different problems here, and two totally different solutions.

The Helm of Opposite Alignment? Yeah, it may not be 'fun', but dealing with cursed items on occasion is an assumed risk of playing the game. It's no different than a trap, or rust monster, or disjunctions, or a higher-than-average CR critter, or similar. It's entirely an in-game problem (and there are some people who really do enjoy getting stuff that radically shifts their character's outlook - I play with a bunch of semi-professional actors and they love this stuff) and as such, you need to take care of it via in-game solutions FIRST. Suck it up, and go get the bloody thing off the person via the game mechanics. Then, and only then, once you've dealt with it in-game and the tempers have had a chance to cool, do you mention to the DM that forcing character shifts "may not be the sort of roleplay that the party is looking for". That will give the DM a chance to respond without feeling like he's being attacked. If you immediately go and yell that you aren't having fun and this needs to be fixed "right now", while the Helm is still an issue, the DM will simply see it as a challenge to his game, or you not wanting to have to deal with the IG hassle of removing it. As such, he'll either ignore you, get mad, or throw more stuff like that in to spite you. Which isn't helpful.

I should have mentioned this earlier. There is no in-game way for us to deal with this item. The helm requires either a wish or miracle spell to reverse its effects. We are level 6. There is no way we can afford to purchase a casting of a level 9 spell with a costly material component. So this is in effect a permanent change to the character.

Also, we've got 2 different games running. I DM the other one. We have 3 other people that enjoy running short games. So there's no reason anyone is being forced to DM - it's actually a bit of a competition who gets to do it.

[Waker]

I gotta disagree about the helm.

It's no different than a trap, or rust monster, or disjunctions, or a higher-than-average CR critter, or similar. It's entirely an in-game problem (and there are some people who really do enjoy getting stuff that radically shifts their character's outlook - I play with a bunch of semi-professional actors and they love this stuff) and as such, you need to take care of it via in-game solutions FIRST.

The issue I have with the helm is that it specifically alters a characters alignment and the only way to counteract it is with the use of 9th spells. There are some other ways a character can have their alignment forcibly be changed, such as with lycanthropy or vampirism, but those can be dealt with much easier (remove disease, belladonna for lycanthropy/kill vampire, raise dead), not to mention that certain special abilities can prevent the change in the first place.
Before I get too far from my point, while alignment does have some mechanical function in the game (smite evil, detect chaos, blah blah) it's primary function is to act as a role playing function. But then here comes this mechanical feature that says, "This is now how you must role play, so sayeth the cursed item." Some players might enjoy that sorta thing, but I think many people are going to be annoyed as they have to basically reinvent their character.

[Coidzor]

Yes, because an item that has a 50-50 chance of making your character into an NPC or making you play a completely different one without the pleasure of actually building something to be the diametric opposite of your last character is fun. It'd be better to just have the character killed by the cursed item and be unable to be brought back. It would taunt the players less and be less disruptive to what was going on before the item was introduced.

edit: And how, exactly, do you propose that low level characters fix the situation in game? By your logic, the DM would just get defensive or throw more BS at them to spite them if they do the only thing they can do, which is gank the ruined PC.

Helms of Opposite Alignment and Decks of Many thing are campaign derailing cursed items that are primarily "gotcha" items for the arsenals of vindictive DMs or traps for the ignorant.

[Greenish]

The issue I have with the helm is that it specifically alters a characters alignment and the only way to counteract it is with the use of 9th spells.

Well, it's not the only way. A second Helm would also work.

[Waker]

By RAW it wouldn't. Looking at the entry in the book is states "The curse only works once: that is, a character whose alignment has been changed cannot change it again by donning the helmet a second time." but then goes on to say "When a helm of opposite alignment has functioned once, it loses it's magical properties" which would at the very least imply that grabbing a second helm wouldn't work since its the same curse.

[Swordguy]

I should have mentioned this earlier. There is no in-game way for us to deal with this item. The helm requires either a wish or miracle spell to reverse its effects. We are level 6. There is no way we can afford to purchase a casting of a level 9 spell with a costly material component. So this is in effect a permanent change to the character.

Wait - so you're annoyed about this because you can't cast level 9 spells? That's it?

You're heroes! Go on a quest for find one! Be proactive - this is about the most blatant quest hook I've ever heard! How many different ways are there to get a wish effect in D&D? Rings, Efreets, scrolls (you CAN cast above your level, you know)...there's a pretty good list.

The DM is clearly ignoring WBL regardless, otherwise he wouldn't have hit you with such an item in the first place. So finding soething, somewhere that will fix the effect isn't going to be impossible. It'll just be at the bottom of a massive dungeon. Or in the king's vault. Or in the lost Temple of Important Plot Items. In short, at the end of a heroic quest. Hmmm...what sort of people tend to go on those?

If it's such a bother, go research the issue in-character. Use scribes, court wizards, ancient libraries - these are all fairly common in most fantasy camapaigns, yes? Find legends that tell of "The Legendary MacGuffin" and its legendary resting place of...legend. Or something. Don't such sit there and bemoan WBL guidelines! Be proactive and find a way to make it happen! I'd be willing to put good money on this whole thing being a plot hook from your DM - a hero is inadvertently cursed and his compatriots embark on an epic quest (having to deal with his new "personality" the whole way) to cure him.

If you've literally tried everything, and I do mean every reasonable method (so discounting Candle of Invocation cheese or Pazuzu-fying the situation) to solve the situation in-game, and have come up with nothing...then yes. Go have a talk with the DM. But you aren't a prisoner to the rules - what would <insert literary hero here> do if faced with such a conundrum? The one thing he wouldn't do is say something like "wow, this isn't fair - I'm not cut out to handle this sort of thing until I've been adventuring a lot longer. Guess I'll give up." He'd suck it up and go find a way.

Unless he's Tanis Half-elven...he'd probably whine like that. But that's 'cause he's an angsty little punk anyway.

[Coidzor]

On the other hand, a light-hearted farcical detour investigating the source of all of these helms of opposite alignment that are popping up, while a derail and detour nonetheless, would be the most salvageable situation to be gotten out of the line of having helms of opposite alignment popped on PCs like a game of whack-a-mole...

[Waker]

Going on a quest to find a way to use Wish wouldn't be much of a quest anyways, since the cursed character would oppose the entire thing. The item specifically says that "In fact, he views the prospect with horror and avoids it in any way possible." so unless the party is going to tie him and carry him as they adventure along, it wouldn't work.

[Swordguy]

Convince him it's for something else. Conceal what it's about. Lie to him. You know...Roleplay. Heck, if he's evil now, just don't mention the whole "wish" thing and make it sound like you're going after a source of wealth and power.

Nothing, anywhere, says that he has to be in on the entirety of the planning sessions...



EDIT: Full disclosure. During the rare opportunities I have to play, I love getting the occasional involuntary alignment or personality changes. Cthulhu-style insanity. Alignment-shifting items. Possession. Heck, even roleplaying addiction to drugs (Shadowrun) or magic (WoW Blood Elves). It's refreshing - an opportunity to play the same character, but differently. It's like getting to watch the Mirror Universe episodes of Star Trek, or any of the billion sci-fi shows where the protagonist ends up possessed or replaced by a duplicate or changes their back history so now they're Not A Nice Guy. No, it's not what I originally signed on to play, but I roll with it and enjoy getting to stretch my RPing muscles for a few sessions whilst my comrades find a solution.

[MikelaC1]

Helms of Opposite Alignment and Decks of Many thing are campaign derailing cursed items that are primarily "gotcha" items for the arsenals of vindictive DMs or traps for the ignorant.

I just have to disagree a tiny bit on this comparision. A helm of OA will burn a PC who has not done anything wrong. A deck however, is known to have inherant risks, and very bad cards, and if you are greedy enough to take the risk, you deserve what you get.

[Coidzor]

Going on a quest to find a way to use Wish wouldn't be much of a quest anyways, since the cursed character would oppose the entire thing. The item specifically says that "In fact, he views the prospect with horror and avoids it in any way possible." so unless the party is going to tie him and carry him as they adventure along, it wouldn't work.

And that would bring us back to square one with it being an unpleasant, convoluted way for the DM to force a player to sit out of the game session that he just had to be there for.

I just have to disagree a tiny bit on this comparision. A helm of OA will burn a PC who has not done anything wrong. A deck however, is known to have inherant risks, and very bad cards, and if you are greedy enough to take the risk, you deserve what you get.

Though by the same token, putting on a magic item that hasn't been analyzed dweomer'd is known to have inherent risks and if you're greedy enough to try it out anyway you deserve what you get. Granted, you do have a point, but they're still both items that are fundamentally for destroying at least a character if not the campaign. If one's lucky, the situation could be salvageable into a different campaign, but the old one is dead as assuredly as that old witch.

And this particular deck of many things was one that forced you to have to make a will save to avoid drawing half the deck upon coming within 5 feet of it or something along those lines. And then make another couple of will saves to get rid of it. If I'm remembering correctly, it might have just been a single will save to get rid of it.

It was a pretty nasty cursed deck of many things, anyway, and it was from the same session/loot pile as the helm of opposite alignment.

So if I seem like I'm being less than charitable towards the DM, that's pretty much why. It mostly just looks like the DM wanted to throw a monkeywrench into his own plot since he had a specially cursed deck of many things and a helm of opposite alignment show up in the same session/loot pile.

Relying on that kind of DM to provide the solution to the problem just seems unlikely.

[Waker]

While the idea of adventuring while trying to keep one player in the dark is an amusing enough concept, it still doesn't negate my earlier comment about rewriting your character. Sure, some players might like the challenge, but not everyone is capable or willing to remake their character. Especially if the source of this grief is a crappy item. Not some big moral quandary, not dedicated roleplaying time where your character grows and changes gradually. Just BAM! it's opposite day forever for you.

[Callista]

With that helm--does the rest of your party know what it did?

And does the character in question now have an alignment in opposition to the rest of the party?

If so, the obvious step is to reverse the alignment change and destroy the helm. If your party is mostly-Good, they will want to reverse what's basically magical brainwashing. If they're mostly-Evil, they won't want a newly-reformed buddy hanging around (but would probably be quite happy with his owing them a BIG favor afterward). So either way, it's very logical you'd want to reverse this.

To do it forcibly:
1. When the brainwashed party member is asleep, knock him unconscious, petrify him, or restrain him thoroughly. Take into account his spellcasting strategy. Take 20 on your Use Rope and have everyone use Aid Another. I really recommend the petrification option.
2. Take your party member--preferably in a Bag of Holding (with a bottle of air if he's not a statue)--and go hunt down a high-level magic-user. Buy the Wish or Miracle. If you're Good-aligned, it shouldn't be hard. If you're Evil, you'll probably have a more difficult time. You can also cast (possibly from a scroll) a spell like Sanctify the Wicked, Morality Undone, or Mindrape. These can change him back to normal as well. Mindrape is probably the easiest to use. The others take time, but if you have access to planar travel, a demiplane can take care of it.

Without magic:
There are rules in the Book of Exalted Deeds which allow you to change a character's alignment over time. They are intended to be used for NPCs, but with the PC's permission, you can adopt them for use with the brainwashed PC. They will take time. Find a quiet place where you can essentially take an extended holiday. You may need to boost Diplomacy or have a way of re-rolling skill checks or both, because you will need to make repeated successful Diplomacy checks; and you'll need to be sure you have a way of actually keeping the PC there, at least in the beginning before the method has begun to work. The benefit of this option is that you're not spending XP or as much time, nor do you need high-level magic; but you'll have to convince the DM to let it work on a PC.

[WarKitty]

Wait - so you're annoyed about this because you can't cast level 9 spells? That's it?

You're heroes! Go on a quest for find one! Be proactive - this is about the most blatant quest hook I've ever heard! How many different ways are there to get a wish effect in D&D? Rings, Efreets, scrolls (you CAN cast above your level, you know)...there's a pretty good list.

The DM is clearly ignoring WBL regardless, otherwise he wouldn't have hit you with such an item in the first place. So finding soething, somewhere that will fix the effect isn't going to be impossible. It'll just be at the bottom of a massive dungeon. Or in the king's vault. Or in the lost Temple of Important Plot Items. In short, at the end of a heroic quest. Hmmm...what sort of people tend to go on those?

If it's such a bother, go research the issue in-character. Use scribes, court wizards, ancient libraries - these are all fairly common in most fantasy camapaigns, yes? Find legends that tell of "The Legendary MacGuffin" and its legendary resting place of...legend. Or something. Don't such sit there and bemoan WBL guidelines! Be proactive and find a way to make it happen! I'd be willing to put good money on this whole thing being a plot hook from your DM - a hero is inadvertently cursed and his compatriots embark on an epic quest (having to deal with his new "personality" the whole way) to cure him.

If you've literally tried everything, and I do mean every reasonable method (so discounting Candle of Invocation cheese or Pazuzu-fying the situation) to solve the situation in-game, and have come up with nothing...then yes. Go have a talk with the DM. But you aren't a prisoner to the rules - what would <insert literary hero here> do if faced with such a conundrum? The one thing he wouldn't do is say something like "wow, this isn't fair - I'm not cut out to handle this sort of thing until I've been adventuring a lot longer. Guess I'll give up." He'd suck it up and go find a way.

Unless he's Tanis Half-elven...he'd probably whine like that. But that's 'cause he's an angsty little punk anyway.

The entire premise of the campaign is a timed save the world quest. We don't have time to go frittering about trying to fix this. Plus we're lucky it didn't hit my character as originally planned - I'm playing a druid, I would have been stuck with a completely useless character until we got it fixed, plus if I managed to stick around have my levels screwed up with something totally irrelevant.

Going on a quest to find a way to use Wish wouldn't be much of a quest anyways, since the cursed character would oppose the entire thing. The item specifically says that "In fact, he views the prospect with horror and avoids it in any way possible." so unless the party is going to tie him and carry him as they adventure along, it wouldn't work.

Point, there. I somehow doubt the entire rest of the party can manage to bluff him into not figuring out what's going on.

And that would bring us back to square one with it being an unpleasant, convoluted way for the DM to force a player to sit out of the game session that he just had to be there for.



Though by the same token, putting on a magic item that hasn't been analyzed dweomer'd is known to have inherent risks and if you're greedy enough to try it out anyway you deserve what you get. Granted, you do have a point, but they're still both items that are fundamentally for destroying at least a character if not the campaign. If one's lucky, the situation could be salvageable into a different campaign, but the old one is dead as assuredly as that old witch.

And this particular deck of many things was one that forced you to have to make a will save to avoid drawing half the deck upon coming within 5 feet of it or something along those lines. And then make another couple of will saves to get rid of it. If I'm remembering correctly, it might have just been a single will save to get rid of it.

It was a pretty nasty cursed deck of many things, anyway, and it was from the same session/loot pile as the helm of opposite alignment.

So if I seem like I'm being less than charitable towards the DM, that's pretty much why. It mostly just looks like the DM wanted to throw a monkeywrench into his own plot since he had a specially cursed deck of many things and a helm of opposite alignment show up in the same session/loot pile.

Relying on that kind of DM to provide the solution to the problem just seems unlikely.

Yeah pretty much. He has different definitions of fun, apparently. The deck was a single will save item to not draw from it. And it's not like we can cast analyze dweomer, either - I'm pretty sure we *did* cast identify.

Anyways, I brought it up off-handedly at dinner tonight. He said if the player has an issue, he can adjust the item so remove curse rather than wish undoes the change.

[Callista]

Well, crap... you're playing a druid and the DM forced you to switch to a non-neutral alignment? That's not kosher at all. It would have been interesting if there had been either time to deal with it or a character who didn't lose abilities over it, but this isn't exactly the kind of complication that makes a quest more fun.

Yeah, you need to talk to him out of game. Changing it to Break Enchantment to get rid of it would be logical. Of course, the character can try to save against the spell (probably will), but just spam it at him and it'll work eventually.

[WarKitty]

Well, crap... you're playing a druid and the DM forced you to switch to a non-neutral alignment? That's not kosher at all. It would have been interesting if there had been either time to deal with it or a character who didn't lose abilities over it, but this isn't exactly the kind of complication that makes a quest more fun.

Yeah, you need to talk to him out of game. Changing it to Break Enchantment to get rid of it would be logical. Of course, the character can try to save against the spell (probably will), but just spam it at him and it'll work eventually.

Clarification: I was originally going to get the item. The ranger grabbed it and tried it on, getting hit with the curse. At which point I sense motive'd what had just happened and decided he could keep it.

This is why one of my own DM'ing traditions is the "feedback time" every few weeks.

[Coidzor]

The entire premise of the campaign is a timed save the world quest. We don't have time to go frittering about trying to fix this. Plus we're lucky it didn't hit my character as originally planned - I'm playing a druid, I would have been stuck with a completely useless character until we got it fixed, plus if I managed to stick around have my levels screwed up with something totally irrelevant.

So he was specifically targeting your Exalted Good Druid to make it have a fall and lose its exalted feats and feat slots forever? Ahh, good old BoED, bringing the classic "Screw You Paladin" scenarios to other classes.

Yeah pretty much. He has different definitions of fun, apparently. The deck was a single will save item to not draw from it. And it's not like we can cast analyze dweomer, either - I'm pretty sure we *did* cast identify.

Anyways, I brought it up off-handedly at dinner tonight. He said if the player has an issue, he can adjust the item so remove curse rather than wish undoes the change.

Well that's something at least. You might only have to add some additional reinforcement to think about such items' use carefully rather than bring up the topic in its entirety. Though probably should still be covered well for clarity's sake...