3.5 Balance question. Capping the game at level 10.

[Vemynal]

So as a fledgling DM I've paid a lot of attention over time to 3.5 and have read thoroughly all the different cheese threads, etc, to keep an eye out for things I can do, things players can do and over all balance and game coordination.

One thing I've come to notice is that the game at higher levels, at 12+ it seems to completely fall apart from a melee point of view. It seems to me at this level is when caster's really begin to gain their spells and powers that allow them to completely rework reality as they see fit.


So my question is, do you believe that 3.5 is better balanced around level 10? Especially when dealing with casters?

If so, how would it affect a game for characters to really "cap out" at level 10? (not through some unbreakable wall but merely planning for campaigns in progress to end at level 10)

How do you feel this alternates the tiers? does it widen the gaps or close the distance between caster and melee classes? Would this break some classes?

How does this affect magic items?

Originally I was going to ask about how it would affect monsters but you could always just say its an 'adult dragon' and have it be some lower dragons stats. So I feel that the games 'epic feel' would remain.

[Elfin]

There's a system that does something very similar - E6. It's worth looking into.
Myself, I feel it's around level eight that casters really start outperforming meleers.

[Vemynal]

true but a lot of classes get interesting and unique cap stone abilities around level 10 that I'd feel bad for making them lose xD

and I'm not talking editing down the classes, just keeping them as they are up til 10.

On that note though, what would you say about PrC classes then?

[TakeABow]

Spellcasting starts to dominate the game from level 7 on if the right spells are chosen (Black Tentacles, Divination, Divine Power, Dimension Door, etc.) The allure of E6 is that you keep the 'balance' between spellcasters and non-spellcasters that exists at low levels. It then allows you to keep gaining feats instead of leveling up, which means the characters can keep improving, but the spellcasting never gets out of hand. Eventually at level 6 +20 feats or so, you have a party which is equivalent to level 10 characters, but all the classes should still contribute reasonably to both combat and out of combat situations. E6 'goes up to level 10' without actually going past 6, which I think is pretty cool.

[Flickerdart]

Magic already gets out of hand by 10th level - Polymorph is already in play, for example. 6th level is a better cut-off point.

[Greenish]

On that note though, what would you say about PrC classes then?

E6 made them feat chains, but you could cram a few in 10 levels. Many melee PrCs require rather high BAB though.

[MeeposFire]

10th level in 3.5 is not too bad. Casters are starting to pull ahead but they do not have the worst offenses.

The game works fine 1-12 or so depending on players. 7th level spells start becoming real game changers. 4-6th level spells can be very powerful but are not the end of the world. They just give casters an advantage where non-casters had an advantage at level 1 (not a fan of that but it sort of "balances" in a way, though not very well). Unlike at a full 1-20 game the differences are not so pronounced at level 10 that you cannot use fighters and wizards in the same party.

That said even at 10th casters will still be ahead while not trying and it is easy to screw up melee characters to weakness. So be prepared regardless.

[TheOOB]

10th level in 3.5 is not too bad. Casters are starting to pull ahead but they do not have the worst offenses.

By 10th level it's already too late. Polymorph alone makes fighters useless.

[Demonweave]

I actually thought about this before I started running my current campaign.

The answer I chose was that as far as the PCs know, the highest known spell level is 6. (No reason you cant make this lower)

Which I think means the old non casters can keep up.
Means that once casters get to this point they are forced to either multiclass (which I removed the XP penalty). Or find a way to create 7th+ level spells. (Which I have a second campaign planned for)

The other option I found is at later levels give the non-casting members slightly nice items. Done subtely it will even it up a bit and none of the players will be any wiser.

Hope this helps.

[MeeposFire]

By 10th level it's already too late. Polymorph alone makes fighters useless.

Polymorph does not make fighters useless at this level. It just makes them less necessary. Further it is much more efficient at this level to use that on the fighter and let the wizard cast other spells rather than trying to make the wizard do both at once or even having two wizards and buffing one just to replace a fighter. You could use a wizard melee specialist but really that is more of the cool factor and future power than anything else. Warrior classes still do OK at this point though casters do hold an advantage, it is just not insurmountable at this point.

High level wizards do not dominate through damage. High level fighters can do more than enough damage to kill any creature in a game. What wizards have is versatility, in that he can copy the fighters jobs and do it nearly as well (well enough that you do not need the fighter even if he could do it slightly better). Wizards also get the "I win" spells that have nothing to do with damage which are better than the wizard trying to melee the monsters. Fighter can only win through damage which means they will always be limited in 3.5.

[Curmudgeon]

Capping the game at level 10 will be too late to cut off the advantage that spellcasters gain from higher-level spells, and much too early for non-spellcasting classes with good abilities at later levels (such as the Blindsight Scouts get at level 20).

I'm afraid that addressing the issue of spellcaster power isn't going to be solved so simply if you don't want to screw over non-spellcasting PCs.

[Gnaeus]

On the other hand, at 10th level, parties often still have to fight monsters, without the rocket tag nature of very high level play. It wouldn't solve PC/PC balance, but it would probably help PC/monster balance. (Not that DMs can't find a balance with any PC, but at high levels it is tricky and easy to make TPK/cakewalk encounters.

[MeeposFire]

I agree and 10th level fights are still fun and exciting which is a nice plus even for fighters and the like.

[Thespianus]

Off the top of my head: Cap spells at level 3 or 4, but keep all classes progressing as normal as in a normal game?

Basically, it's 3.5 but with maximum 3rd(or 4th) level spells.

Caster levels keep increasing, but spellcasters just dont get any spells of higher levels.

[MeeposFire]

Really its less the level of the spell and more of what each individual spell gives you. For instance a warmage casts 9th level spells but is considered I believe tier 4. The reason for that is warmage spells are mostly direct damage spells and those do not break the game so much compared to warriors. If you limit spells to something similar to the warmage list at the higher levels then you could keep higher level spells. Heck in some games I was tempted to eliminate many of the 9th level spell casters and replace them with Dread necros, warmages and beguilers since they do not break the game like sorc and wizards can.

[Fitz10019]

Make sure the players know, so they don't start feat chains that they cannot finish.

[Kaldrin]

Why don't you just have no spell-casting classes? Instead rely strictly on UMD. It shouldn't be too hard to restrict the occurance of magic once you have that in place.

10th level is alright to play until, but if I was a player I'd not want to play with half the class as my maximum. Some good abilities don't even show up until 12 or 14.

[Starbuck_II]

I agree and 10th level fights are still fun and exciting which is a nice plus even for fighters and the like.

This plus +1.
You aren't even legendary yet (11th).

[Prime32]

There's a system that does something very similar - E6. It's worth looking into.

If you look around a little you'll also see rules for E8 and E10.

[Callista]

Don't cap the game. Just start them at level 10 and never give out XP. (Warn them first that their power level will stay the same, and allow them to rebuild their characters upon request.)

That might seem quite odd on first glance, but if you're really worried about the caster explosion, then it makes more sense than capping their levels. And I would much prefer starting at 10 and staying there rather than being forced to stay there after having gotten used to leveling up.

You will of course have to adjust monster power levels, but that is not too difficult.

[MeeposFire]

Don't cap the game. Just start them at level 10 and never give out XP. (Warn them first that their power level will stay the same, and allow them to rebuild their characters upon request.)

That might seem quite odd on first glance, but if you're really worried about the caster explosion, then it makes more sense than capping their levels. And I would much prefer starting at 10 and staying there rather than being forced to stay there after having gotten used to leveling up.

You will of course have to adjust monster power levels, but that is not too difficult.

Funny I would probably prefer going 1-10 than 10 only. While I get less stuff than going 1-20 I still get accomplishment it just does not last as long. More power to you though.

[Demonweave]

Funny I would probably prefer going 1-10 than 10 only. While I get less stuff than going 1-20 I still get accomplishment it just does not last as long. More power to you though.

Plus a 1-10 campaign will still take quite a while.

[MeeposFire]

Plus a 1-10 campaign will still take quite a while.

Especially if you slow down advancement by increasing the experience point tables or halving the amount of XP earned or similar measure (last one would work better since players won't notice it as much). It also gives you a good cut-off point sort of like level 20 was for many groups.