[3.5] Tome of Battle's Aptitude property

[Ryuuk]

Something just came to me. Aptitude is a +1 property that lets you apply feats the specify a weapon to the weapon with the ability, even if it is not the weapon type. Now the book lists Weapon Focus and the like as examples (As in, you have Weapon Focus: Longsword, pick up a +1 Aptitude Great Axe, and can now apply weapon focus to it), but a particular reading seems to imply that most any feat keyed off to a particular weapon could be used.

Now, abuses aside, what about Weapon Finesse? I don't think I've ever seen anyone mention this ability with a Dex based character. Does this work? It would open up Power Attack without costing you an Exotic Proficiency, but does it open up any other possibilities or problems I'm overlooking?

[true_shinken]

Now, abuses aside, what about Weapon Finesse? I don't think I've ever seen anyone mention this ability with a Dex based character. Does this work? It would open up Power Attack without costing you an Exotic Proficiency, but does it open up any other possibilities or problems I'm overlooking?

You don't need it. A rapier is a one-handed finesseable weapon. You can Power Attack with it.

[Reynard]

So's the Spiked Chain, if you want to take the EWP.

[Curmudgeon]

I think Ryuuk is trying to find a way to wield a rapier in two hands, but that has nothing to do with Weapon Finesse; it's a limitation of the weapon's construction (with a basket hilt).

You can’t wield a rapier in two hands in order to apply 1½ times your Strength bonus to damage.

So Power Attack is fine, but a rapier is always wielded in just one hand.

[Starbuck_II]

Yep, while you can't 2 handed for extra Str, you can 2 hand for extra power attack with a rapier.

[Ryuuk]

Something like that actually. If you can make any weapon finessable by putting the Aptitude property onto it, well, a Dex based character can now use a Greatsword or Falchion and power attack with 2 hands for a 1:2 trade.

Essentially, if there's nothing wrong with my train of thought, Weapon Finesse characters could use weapons with a bigger base damage or reach without resorting to the Spiked Chain or Kurusai Gama. It would just cost them at least 8000 gp for the +1 Aptitude.

[Curmudgeon]

Yep, while you can't 2 handed for extra Str, you can 2 hand for extra power attack with a rapier.

Nope.

Wielding a Weapon Two-Handed

When you deal damage with a weapon that you are wielding two-handed, you add 1½ times your Strength bonus. However, you don’t get this higher Strength bonus when using a light weapon with two hands.

A rapier isn't a light weapon, you always get the STR bonus for the number of hands you're using to wield the weapon, and you're not allowed two hands there. You don't get to select which bonuses apply.

[Coidzor]

My offhand gut reaction was that being finesseable is a specific property of the weapons rather than the weapon finesse feat.

Upon re-reading the feat text on the SRD, though by a strict reading of the feat text, I believe so, yes.

Re: rapiers, I'd parse it to mean that one can't wield a rapier in two hands.

Edit: As for your bit about powerattacking with a finesse'd weapon. It seems a bit MAD, given power attacking normally synergizes better with the high strength school of combat. But Power Attack does only require strength 13, as do the feats that key off of it like shocktrooper and improved bull-rush... Still, it seems to be taking the difficult road in regards to getting damage up on a dex-based character.

I'm interested to see where you're going with this idea though.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

An Elven Courtblade in Races of the Wild is a two-handed finessable weapon, 1d10 damage 18-20/x2. Rather than take EWP you could get Improved Weapon Familiarity with an elf character and treat all exotic weapons with 'elf' in the name as martial with regards to your proficiency. That gives you access to the Elven Lightblade and Elven Thinblade as well, if you'd prefer to have more options.

[Starbuck_II]

Nope. A rapier isn't a light weapon, you always get the STR bonus for the number of hands you're using to wield the weapon, and you're not allowed two hands there. You don't get to select which bonuses apply.

False, the Rapier says: You can’t wield a rapier in two hands in order to apply 1½ times your Strength bonus to damage.
So you do not get the Str bonus. You can do 2 handed for power attack as the Rapier has no exceptions for that.

[Ryuuk]

Edit: As for your bit about powerattacking with a finesse'd weapon. It seems a bit MAD, given power attacking normally synergizes better with the high strength school of combat. But Power Attack does only require strength 13, as do the feats that key off of it like shocktrooper and improved bull-rush... Still, it seems to be taking the difficult road in regards to getting damage up on a dex-based character.

I'm interested to see where you're going with this idea though.

No where in particular I think, just realizing that Aptitude is pretty useful. It would open up options for a finesse character, being able to use whatever weapon he wants to use, as long as he pays gold rather then an additional feat. I really don't think a dex based Greatsword or Spear would break the game.

I guess if anything, this would make a weapon with the Aptitude property useful to more members of the party if found as loot. You can make the plot important Legendary Weapon whatever you want, without limiting yourself to normally finesse weapons, if you want to give it to the dex based character.

[Curmudgeon]

False, the Rapier says: You can’t wield a rapier in two hands in order to apply 1½ times your Strength bonus to damage.
So you do not get the Str bonus. You can do 2 handed for power attack as the Rapier has no exceptions for that.

How are you going to wield the rapier in two hands for Power Attack while not wielding the rapier in two hands for STR bonus to damage?

As I already pointed out, you don't get to choose what STR bonus applies; it's automatic with how you wield the weapon.

[Frog Dragon]

How are you going to wield the rapier in two hands for Power Attack while not wielding the rapier in two hands for STR bonus to damage?

As I already pointed out, you don't get to choose what STR bonus applies; it's automatic with how you wield the weapon.

The power attack feat says that you gain 2x the BaB sacrificed to damage if wielding a two handed weapon or a one handed weapon in two hands. You can't wield it to get extra str to damage, but you can still wield it in two hands. The power attack says that by wielding a one handed weapon in two hands, you get 2x BaB sacrificed as a bonus to damage. A rapier is a one handed weapon.

[Devas]

Now, abuses aside, what about Weapon Finesse? I don't think I've ever seen anyone mention this ability with a Dex based character. Does this work? It would open up Power Attack without costing you an Exotic Proficiency, but does it open up any other possibilities or problems I'm overlooking?

I don't think this would work, since Weapon Finesse affects a list of different weapons, rather than one specific type of weapon.

[MeeposFire]

I don't think this would work, since Weapon Finesse affects a list of different weapons, rather than one specific type of weapon.

Agreed though 3.0 weapon finesse would work since it required you to choose a specific weapon.

[CockroachTeaParty]

Would an exotic Aptitude weapon be usable by anyone with a weapon proficiency?

[Curmudgeon]

The power attack says that by wielding a one handed weapon in two hands, you get 2x BaB sacrificed as a bonus to damage. A rapier is a one handed weapon.

Yes, but at the same time you must also get 1½xSTR bonus if you wield a one-handed weapon in two hands, and this is disallowed by the rules in the case of the rapier.

You can't simultaneously wield the rapier in one hand for the STR bonus and in two hands for Power Attack. It's just not possible.

[Bakkan]

For what it's worth, my interpretation of the Aptitude weapon property (as well as the warblade's Weapon Aptitude class feature) is that it allows you to apply only those feats for which you have to choose one specific weapon. So for instance, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical, Martial Weapon Proficiency, and Exotic Weapon Proficiency are appropriate feats to use with the Aptitude weapon property. On the other hand, Weapon Finesse, Power Attack, Slashing Mastery (or whatever it's called from PHB that applies to a group of weapons), Lightning Maces, and the like are not appropriate feats to use the Aptitude property with, since none of these feats require you to pick a specific weapon to apply the feat to.

[ffone]

Something just came to me. Aptitude is a +1 property that lets you apply feats the specify a weapon to the weapon with the ability, even if it is not the weapon type. Now the book lists Weapon Focus and the like as examples (As in, you have Weapon Focus: Longsword, pick up a +1 Aptitude Great Axe, and can now apply weapon focus to it), but a particular reading seems to imply that most any feat keyed off to a particular weapon could be used.

Now, abuses aside, what about Weapon Finesse? I don't think I've ever seen anyone mention this ability with a Dex based character. Does this work? It would open up Power Attack without costing you an Exotic Proficiency, but does it open up any other possibilities or problems I'm overlooking?

The most commonly cited abuse, I believe, is combining Lightning Maces feat with a high threat range weapon.

If you wish to limit abuse, my suggestion would be to limit Aptitude to applying to feats which can be taken for any weapon (or at least for that weapon) - in other words Aptitude can give you feats you don't have, but not feats that don't exist ('Lightning Kukris').

That's RAI, based on the examples the text gives (any-weapon feats like Weapon Focus), but should nip an exploits; you'll always be doing something *some* character could go if he woke up with the right feats that morning (like with the Warblade's EZ-Retrain ability).

Yes, but at the same time you must also get 1½xSTR bonus if you wield a one-handed weapon in two hands, and this is disallowed by the rules in the case of the rapier.

You can't simultaneously wield the rapier in one hand for the STR bonus and in two hands for Power Attack. It's just not possible.

Isn't your contention overruled by the "specific trumps general" principle?

You seem to be saying "wielding a weapon two-handed grants 1-1/2 Str damage. Therefore, if you are not getting 1-1/2 Str damage, you are not wielding it two-handed."

But the rapier *is an explicit exception* to the rule "you must also get 1½xSTR bonus if you wield a one-handed weapon in two hands".

The line from the rapier entry "You can’t wield a rapier in two hands in order to apply 1½ times your Strength bonus to damage" is rather unfortunate grammar - the "in order to" is a weird phrase that alludes to the motives of the player.

If the line is interpreted as being equivalent to "you can't get 1-1/2 Sr bonus by wielding in two hands", then you could still get 1:2 PA.

If you interpret it as equivalent to "you can't wield a rapier in two hands. (And by the way guys, the usual motive for that is 1 1/2 Str damage)." then you couldn't.

I read it like the first. It says you can't do X to get Y but not that you can't do X.

[Cadian 9th]

My offhand gut reaction was that being finesseable is a specific property of the weapons rather than the weapon finesse feat.

Upon re-reading the feat text on the SRD, though by a strict reading of the feat text, I believe so, yes.

Re: rapiers, I'd parse it to mean that one can't wield a rapier in two hands.

Edit: As for your bit about powerattacking with a finesse'd weapon. It seems a bit MAD, given power attacking normally synergizes better with the high strength school of combat. But Power Attack does only require strength 13, as do the feats that key off of it like shocktrooper and improved bull-rush... Still, it seems to be taking the difficult road in regards to getting damage up on a dex-based character.

I'm interested to see where you're going with this idea though.

A good use for this is an Overwhelming attack monk, no Strength Prerequisite. Monk 2 Dip isn't too bad, or Monk 1 for that matter. It'd let you use shadow blade at least.

An Elven Courtblade in Races of the Wild is a two-handed finessable weapon, 1d10 damage 18-20/x2. Rather than take EWP you could get Improved Weapon Familiarity with an elf character and treat all exotic weapons with 'elf' in the name as martial with regards to your proficiency. That gives you access to the Elven Lightblade and Elven Thinblade as well, if you'd prefer to have more options.

Better yet, make it Kaorti for a x4 crit multiplier, and/or heavy for bonus damage.

I'm not exactly sure, but I've been allowed to use Power Throw and Deadeye shot with an Aptitude melee weapon. Is this RAW legal? Is it RAI legal?

[Keld Denar]

You can't combine Heavy with Kaorti Resin. Heavy requires a weapon to be made out of a an alloy of heavy metals like platinum or gold. Kaorti Resin is demon poo. Demon poo isn't platinum.

[Cadian 9th]

You can't combine Heavy with Kaorti Resin. Heavy requires a weapon to be made out of a an alloy of heavy metals like platinum or gold. Kaorti Resin is demon poo. Demon poo isn't platinum.

I thought there was something up with that. Well, in any case I'd rather Kaorti, since it makes the courtblade into a sexy 18-20/x4 crit machine. Improved crit/Keen edge makes it a lovely 15-20/x4.

My question goes hand in hand with the OPs. Does a weapon group include a specific weapon? Or, " Light Weapons " cannot be changed to be an aptitude weapon?

[MeeposFire]

It cannot be a group. It has to be a specific weapon as the ability uses the term "particular type of weapon".

So weapon finesse is a no go as it applies to more than one type of weapon.

Weapon focus is fine since it just applies to one weapon at a time.

[Cadian 9th]

Ah.

What about Shadow Blade? It calls out multiple specific weapons, does that count?

[MeeposFire]

I would think not since the feat applies to multiple weapons at a time. For example it would apply to my shortsword and my unarmed attack at the same time. This would say to me that it works with a group of specific weapons but the feat does not apply to a "particular type of weapon".

[Cadian 9th]

Ah, kay. What about Deadeye? It specifies a Ranged Weapon that you have Weapon Focus with, would that be a specific weapon or a group of specific weapons? (say if you have Weapon focus for the Crossbow and Longbow)

[Coidzor]

You can't combine Heavy with Kaorti Resin. Heavy requires a weapon to be made out of a an alloy of heavy metals like platinum or gold. Kaorti Resin is demon poo. Demon poo isn't platinum.

Unless you're feeding the demons platinum.... *has bad mental images of the Tippyverse getting ahold of Kaorti*

[RMS Oceanic]

Ah, kay. What about Deadeye? It specifies a Ranged Weapon that you have Weapon Focus with, would that be a specific weapon or a group of specific weapons? (say if you have Weapon focus for the Crossbow and Longbow)

That's an interesting conundrum. My gut says if you can benefit from the Weapon Focus bonus, then you can apply it to Deadeye, but that's just me.

[2xMachina]

Unless you're feeding the demons platinum.... *has bad mental images of the Tippyverse getting ahold of Kaorti*

I like materials mixing.

It's a composite demonpoo-platinum/iron alloy

Technically, you can make it in RL. OK, not demon poo, but resins metal composites are possible. Platinum/iron alloys are possible.

18-20/x4 and qualifies for Disciple of Dispater

[Cadian 9th]

Disciple of Dispater? 18-20/x4?