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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    HalflingPirate

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    Default Better Shortsword?

    I'm currently playing a Factotum 3/Swash 3/ Protean Adept 3 who TWF with two shortswords. I'm currently looking for a way to get the most out of my shortswords. Right now both are +1 Spell Storing weapons.
    I'd like to stick with shortswords, but would be willing to switch to another light slashing weapons. I'm am open to changing their material, crafting qualities, enchantments, etc.
    I'm primarily looking for increased combat damage or, alternatively, effects that would make me more versatile, in keeping with a jack-of all-trades character, or improve Int-based skills/knowledge checks (which I don't think exist as weapon enchantments, but feel free to prove me wrong).

    Thanks

    EDIT: Added class levels and Swash levels.
    Last edited by Tibbaerrohwen; 2011-01-23 at 02:59 PM.

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    Default Re: Better Shortsword?

    I'll assume taking 3 levels in Swashbuckler is out? They get INT bonus to damage.

    What kind of cash can you drop on the weapon enchantments, and do you have feats to spend?
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    Default Re: Better Shortsword?

    Sun Blades?

    Shortswords that deal damage as Bastard Swords. And they do more damage to undead.

    Expensive buggers though.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Better Shortsword?

    Quote Originally Posted by gbprime View Post
    I'll assume taking 3 levels in Swashbuckler is out? They get INT bonus to damage.

    What kind of cash can you drop on the weapon enchantments, and do you have feats to spend?
    Sorry gbprime, I will put the Swash levels into my original post. Yes, I did take the three levels for Weapon Finesse and Int to damage. My Str is +0 so parting with it is unthinkable. I have as much mony as it would have cost for the the two +1 Spellstoring shortswords, as well as about 1,000 gp reserve. I can make more with some craft checks. I could liquidate some off my other equipment, if the idea is mind-blowing and requires me to clean my own grey matter from the walls.
    I do not have any feats available currently, no.

    EDIT: Kobold-Bard, the Sun-blades are cool. They're drasitcally would of my price range but I'll look into them in the future.
    Last edited by Tibbaerrohwen; 2011-01-23 at 02:58 PM.

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    Default Re: Better Shortsword?

    There's a lesser, cheaper version of the sunblade lying around somewhere (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft?).

    You could argue to get that lesser ability added to your existing weapons by reverse engineering the price.
    Last edited by Claudius Maximus; 2011-01-23 at 02:58 PM.
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    Default Re: Better Shortsword?

    Yeah, lesser sunblades are the way to go.

    Also, Shadow Blade! A one-level dip in swordsage will get you Assassin's Stance, for 2d6 SA, plus a load of maneuvers - and you can then take the Shadow Blade feat for Dex to damage when using Shadow Hand weapons (like shortswords).
    Last edited by Elfin; 2011-01-23 at 03:05 PM.

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    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Better Shortsword?

    Quick draw two more spell storing shortswords or glove of storing one more. Heck quick draw is a free action you can do multiple times per round. So chain gun spell storing shortswords, dropping their spent husks around your feet as you discharge spell after spell. Just hope you're not forced to run away from fights. Quickdraw doesn't let you sheathe them as a free action; you must drop to be fast.

    You're also right at the sweet spot for poisons, where they're affordable yet the enemy might still fail his save. Remember even a 10% chance of failure per hit adds up, especially since it doesn't cost you an action to tack these saves on top of everything else you do.
    Last edited by ericgrau; 2011-01-23 at 03:12 PM.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Better Shortsword?

    Quote Originally Posted by ericgrau View Post
    Quick draw two more spell storing shortswords or glove of storing one more. Heck quick draw is a free action you can do multiple times per round. So chain gun spell storing shortswords, dropping their spent husks around your feet as you discharge spell after spell. Just hope you're not forced to run away from fights. Quickdraw doesn't let you sheathe them as a free action; you must drop to be fast.

    You're also right at the sweet spot for poisons, where they're affordable yet the enemy might still fail his save. Remember even a 10% chance of failure per hit adds up, especially since it doesn't cost you an action to tack these saves on top of everything else you do.
    I wouldn't recomend throwing such expensive weapons with my DM. He'd notice and use it to teach me not to be so stupid.
    I do like the idea of poisoning my weapons, but I don't have poison use. I wouldn't want to kick myself by getting poisoned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfin View Post
    Yeah, lesser sunblades are the way to go.

    Also, Shadow Blade! A one-level dip in swordsage will get you Assassin's Stance, for 2d6 SA, plus a load of maneuvers - and you can then take the Shadow Blade feat for Dex to damage when using Shadow Hand weapons (like shortswords).
    We currently have two rogues and a swordsage going Shadow Sun Ninja. With that in mind, I've been trying to not step on their toes by going to for SA damage as well. Though, you did just make me think of Ijutsu focus which is a good idea, I think. So, thanks for that.
    Last edited by Tibbaerrohwen; 2011-01-23 at 03:15 PM.

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    Default Re: Better Shortsword?

    The nice thing about getting poisoned while applying poison is that it happens away from combat. Have a cleric handy or wake up an hour later (from drow knockout) or etc. and you're golden. But ya better not chain gun spell storing then, at least until you get a way to return them or they're more affordable or something. Oh and I hope by "throwing" you mean "dropping", because throwing would have penalties and I don't think you could will the stored spell to discharge on a weapon you aren't even holding.

    Sun blades may seem expensive but they're a deal for what you get. Something to consider around level 16 or so. If the campaign continues past 16 then ask the DM if you can upgrade them as you level. It would be fair to treat their current abilities as +5 equivalent. EDIT: Oh and asking that the lesser sunblades be upgradable to normal ones by paying the difference is also fair. As is piling the ability onto existing weapons or adding misc. abilities to it. Neat find. Only thing is, based on price, the mundane weapon used to make the sun sword seems to be a bastard sword not a short sword. Hopefully the DM won't mind.
    Last edited by ericgrau; 2011-01-23 at 03:17 PM.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Better Shortsword?

    Good call on the Cleric. If our Cleric doesn't show for the session, I can keep a wand on hand.
    Somewhere else on the board, someone mentioned the idea of using Shrink to apply something like 45 doses of poison to one weapon, so poison is a keeper.
    Any other ideas?

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Better Shortsword?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobold-Bard View Post
    Sun Blades?

    Shortswords that deal damage as Bastard Swords. And they do more damage to undead.

    Expensive buggers though.
    I've always wanted to play a Rogue dual wielding Sun Blades. It would be very expensive but awesome. Even if it did scream ANIME!

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    Default Re: Better Shortsword?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tetsubo 57 View Post
    I've always wanted to play a Rogue dual wielding Sun Blades. It would be very expensive but awesome. Even if it did scream ANIME!
    Never really got that myself, as it seemed more... random than anything else.

    Also, amusing you should say that with your screen name.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Better Shortsword?

    I prefer daggers, does both slashing and piercing.

    The size of the dice the weapon does in damage is irrellevant.

    Swordsage dip fits your build perfectly tbh, if you don't want Assassin's stance, island of blades, child of shadow and dance of the spider are all nice effects. Then get Shadow Blade feat for dex mod to damage. get the +1 enhancement that attunes the sword to shadow hand discipline. A +1 Shadow Hand Dagger is a weapon that gives +4 to hit (+1 to damage) for the price of a +2 weapon. There's a couple of tiger claw manouvers that augments TWF.

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    Default Re: Better Shortsword?

    So, you have two rogues and a swordsage in the party? There's no good reason not to get sneak attack, since you'll all be trying to flank with each other anyway. Although, Island of Blades could be a useful stance to pick up so you can use Shadow Blade. That will make it easier for them to flank opponents with you, and you won't be doing any sneak attacking of your own.

    Cunning Versatility + Sweeping Strike looks like it could be useful, unless you can't access prestige class features with this. Using it to gain the Tattooed Monk's Tattoo ability would give quite a bit of versatility, since you could gain just about any tattoo on the list for a minute per activation.

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    Default Re: Better Shortsword?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tetsubo 57 View Post
    I've always wanted to play a Rogue dual wielding Sun Blades. It would be very expensive but awesome. Even if it did scream ANIME!
    You should watch more anime.
    In the anime I think of, you get giant drills, scythes, dual gun-arms, martial arts when you're turning into lightning to move and similar attacks.
    Dual Sun Blades would be a let down, comparatively.
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    Default Re: Better Shortsword?

    Quote Originally Posted by Claudius Maximus View Post
    There's a lesser, cheaper version of the sunblade lying around somewhere (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft?).
    The lesser/unawakened version I think it just called a "Sunsword" (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft p. 210). 3000 GP, +1 bastard sword that can be wielded as if it were a shortsword. It counts as a light weapon, a one-handed exotic weapon, or a two-handed martial weapon (which can be mighty handy when you add the Morphing property).

    The fully-awakened "Sun Blade" version is in the DMG. There are rules to awaken the lesser version in Expedition to Castle Ravenloft.

    The best way to increase the damage is use Strongarm Bracers (6000 GP, MIC) with a pair of large-sized sunswords with the heavy weapon property (Magic of Faerun p. 179). Damage is 1d10 -> 2d8 -> 4d6.

    If you're looking for a better crit range, then the Elven Lightblade (Races of the Wild) is similar to a shortsword: 1d6 damage, 18-20/x2 crit. You can upgrade the crit to x4 by using Kaorti resin.

    If you want a shortsword with reach, there's the Kusari Gama (DMG, 1d6 damage 20/x2 crit), Drow Scorpion Chain (Secrets of Xen'drik, 1d6 damage 19-20/x2 crit), or Spinning Sword (Secrets of Sarlona, 1d6 damage, 19-20/x2 crit).

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Better Shortsword?

    Quote Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou View Post
    So, you have two rogues and a swordsage in the party? There's no good reason not to get sneak attack, since you'll all be trying to flank with each other anyway. Although, Island of Blades could be a useful stance to pick up so you can use Shadow Blade. That will make it easier for them to flank opponents with you, and you won't be doing any sneak attacking of your own.

    Cunning Versatility + Sweeping Strike looks like it could be useful, unless you can't access prestige class features with this. Using it to gain the Tattooed Monk's Tattoo ability would give quite a bit of versatility, since you could gain just about any tattoo on the list for a minute per activation.
    Alright, a level in Swordsage could come quite in handy. I was reluctant for it because of my build, but I can forgo a level of the other classes for it.

    Cunning Versatility does only work with base classes. If it worked with PrCs that would be unbelievable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    The lesser/unawakened version I think it just called a "Sunsword" (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft p. 210). 3000 GP, +1 bastard sword that can be wielded as if it were a shortsword. It counts as a light weapon, a one-handed exotic weapon, or a two-handed martial weapon (which can be mighty handy when you add the Morphing property).

    The fully-awakened "Sun Blade" version is in the DMG. There are rules to awaken the lesser version in Expedition to Castle Ravenloft.

    The best way to increase the damage is use Strongarm Bracers (6000 GP, MIC) with a pair of large-sized sunswords with the heavy weapon property (Magic of Faerun p. 179). Damage is 1d10 -> 2d8 -> 4d6.

    If you're looking for a better crit range, then the Elven Lightblade (Races of the Wild) is similar to a shortsword: 1d6 damage, 18-20/x2 crit. You can upgrade the crit to x4 by using Kaorti resin.

    If you want a shortsword with reach, there's the Kusari Gama (DMG, 1d6 damage 20/x2 crit), Drow Scorpion Chain (Secrets of Xen'drik, 1d6 damage 19-20/x2 crit), or Spinning Sword (Secrets of Sarlona, 1d6 damage, 19-20/x2 crit).
    That's a good call. The uped damage very nice. I would need to wait for it, though, because I'm short the Ex WP Bastard sword and have no immediate access to it.

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    Default Re: Better Shortsword?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tibbaerrohwen View Post
    That's a good call. The uped damage very nice. I would need to wait for it, though, because I'm short the Ex WP Bastard sword and have no immediate access to it.
    Then try a wand chamber (100 GP, Dungeonscape) plus a wand of master's touch (750 GP, Spell Compendium). Master's touch is a swift action to cast, and a 1st level wand will last 10 rounds per charge. Most combats don't last much longer than that.

    (You only need EWP for a Heavy weapon or a Kaorti weapon. You don't need it for a sunsword.)

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Better Shortsword?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    Then try a wand chamber (100 GP, Dungeonscape) plus a wand of master's touch (750 GP, Spell Compendium). Master's touch is a swift action to cast, and a 1st level wand will last 10 rounds per charge. Most combats don't last much longer than that.

    (You only need EWP for a Heavy weapon or a Kaorti weapon. You don't need it for a sunsword.)
    Isn't it a standard action to UMD a wand?

    EDIT: As a Legacy Item, even if I get the non-legacy version, can't there only be one?
    Last edited by Tibbaerrohwen; 2011-01-23 at 06:03 PM.

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    Default Re: Better Shortsword?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tibbaerrohwen View Post
    Isn't it a standard action to UMD a wand?
    I think UMD is rolled into activating the wand which takes whatever action the spell does, generally.

    Edit: Yes, yes it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by UMD, courtesy of SRD
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    None. The Use Magic Device check is made as part of the action (if any) required to activate the magic item.
    Last edited by Coidzor; 2011-01-23 at 06:11 PM.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Better Shortsword?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    I think UMD is rolled into activating the wand which takes whatever action the spell does, generally.

    Edit: Yes, yes it is.
    Awesome!

    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    The lesser/unawakened version I think it just called a "Sunsword" (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft p. 210). 3000 GP, +1 bastard sword that can be wielded as if it were a shortsword. It counts as a light weapon, a one-handed exotic weapon, or a two-handed martial weapon (which can be mighty handy when you add the Morphing property).

    The fully-awakened "Sun Blade" version is in the DMG. There are rules to awaken the lesser version in Expedition to Castle Ravenloft.

    The best way to increase the damage is use Strongarm Bracers (6000 GP, MIC) with a pair of large-sized sunswords with the heavy weapon property (Magic of Faerun p. 179). Damage is 1d10 -> 2d8 -> 4d6.
    My hit comes from my Dex/Weapon Finesse; you can't WF Heavy Weapons.

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    Default Re: Better Shortsword?

    I'll second the SA route. If everyone has SA you will be forced into flanking anyway and they are already stepping on their toes a lot. You won't make any real difference.

    Now, if you do get at least 1d6 SA dice you can use a Sword of Subtlety. Free +4 to attack an damage, if you enchant it further you basically get a +9 weapon for 70.310. Greater magic weapon would be even nicer.
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    Default Re: Better Shortsword?

    I also vote for the Shadow Blade technique, because unlike strength, you'll be adding your full Dex to your off hand attack. So when it comes to your choices for magic items, buffs etc, ability score increases, you can just go for Dex. Since you already have weapon finesse, and are a light armored class... it makes a ton of sense.

    Also, at swordsage 1 you'll be able to get weapon focus with shortswords if you don't already have it.

    Do you have Combat Expertise? The I would say to add Deadly Defense.
    Last edited by begooler; 2011-01-23 at 06:56 PM.

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    Default Re: Better Shortsword?

    Quote Originally Posted by begooler View Post
    I also vote for the Shadow Blade technique, because unlike strength, you'll be adding your full Dex to your off hand attack. So when it comes to your choices for magic items, buffs etc, ability score increases, you can just go for Dex. Since you already have weapon finesse, and are a light armored class... it makes a ton of sense.

    Also, at swordsage 1 you'll be able to get weapon focus with shortswords if you don't already have it.

    Do you have Combat Expertise? The I would say to add Deadly Defense.
    Already took Combat Expertise and Deadly Defense, and love it.

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    Default Re: Better Shortsword?

    So, I'm still thinking of going with the Sun Blades. Two new questions arise:

    1) Can I still have two Sun Blades, even lesser one, even if I don't follow the legacy path, because it's a legacy weapon?

    2) a) Does a Sun Blade count as a one-handed weapon for the purposes of Trip/Disarm, or a light weapon?

    2) b) If it does count as a one-handed weapon, do I still treat it as a light weapon for the purpose of TWF?

    3) a) If I add the Morphine property, can I actually morph it into any light, one-handed exotic, or two-handed martial weapon but still treat it as a light weapon, as I think was suggested above by Darrin?

    Thanks

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    Default Re: Better Shortsword?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tibbaerrohwen View Post
    So, I'm still thinking of going with the Sun Blades. Two new questions arise:

    1) Can I still have two Sun Blades, even lesser one, even if I don't follow the legacy path, because it's a legacy weapon?
    Yes, because you don't have to play with them as legacy weapons. Their DMG incarnation does not stipulate that there is only one in existence, after all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tibbaerrohwen View Post
    2) a) Does a Sun Blade count as a one-handed weapon for the purposes of Trip/Disarm, or a light weapon?
    I'd say one-handed but I can see how some might read it as a shortsword with bastard sword damage only. This and 3 are pretty much up to DM interpretation and adjudication almost entirely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tibbaerrohwen View Post
    2) b) If it does count as a one-handed weapon, do I still treat it as a light weapon for the purpose of TWF?
    Yes, nothing can really be argued to negate that based on the text.
    Last edited by Coidzor; 2011-01-24 at 05:22 PM.
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    Default Re: Better Shortsword?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tibbaerrohwen View Post
    1) Can I still have two Sun Blades, even lesser one, even if I don't follow the legacy path, because it's a legacy weapon?
    The "unawakened" version is priced just as any other magic item with similar abilities would be priced. Hence, if you made a non-legacy version of the same item, that's what the cost would be.

    As always, all magic item prices are subject to the DM's judgment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tibbaerrohwen View Post
    2) a) Does a Sun Blade count as a one-handed weapon for the purposes of Trip/Disarm, or a light weapon?
    Depends on how you decide to wield it. If you have EWP: Bastard Sword, you can choose to treat your primary sunsword as a one-handed weapon. Without EWP, you can either wield it as a light weapon (shortsword) or a two-handed martial weapon (bastard sword). In your off-hand, you'd most likely be treating it as a light weapon, unless you had both EWP and Oversize TWF.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tibbaerrohwen View Post
    2) b) If it does count as a one-handed weapon, do I still treat it as a light weapon for the purpose of TWF?
    For your primary hand, depends on if you have EWP (Bastard Sword). For your off-hand, as I mentioned before, it's best as a light weapon unless you have both EWP and Oversize TWF.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tibbaerrohwen View Post
    3) a) If I add the Morphine property, can I actually morph it into any light, one-handed exotic, or two-handed martial weapon but still treat it as a light weapon, as I think was suggested above by Darrin?
    Might want to run that one by your DM.

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    Default Re: Better Shortsword?

    I'd like to point out the Stygian weapon enhancement from MIC; +1 price modifier, add a negative level (no save) to your attack 3/day. Potentially devastating if you blow a bunch of them on a full attack, particularly for the mages.

    Edit: Magebane is rather lovely too, especially for a duel-wielder/thousand-cuts kind of guy.
    Last edited by Scarlet-Devil; 2011-01-24 at 06:04 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BayardSPSR View Post
    Do you have 'craft: disturbing mental image' as a class skill?
    Attempt at converting the characters of Touhou to the world of D&D 3.5: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181050

    Attempt at converting Berserk characters to 3.5: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186155

    Attempt at converting Geralt of Rivia to 3.5:
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208270

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    HalflingPirate

    Join Date
    Nov 2009

    Default Re: Better Shortsword?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarlet-Devil View Post
    I'd like to point out the Stygian weapon enhancement from MIC; +1 price modifier, add a negative level (no save) to your attack 3/day. Potentially devastating if you blow a bunch of them on a full attack, particularly for the mages.

    Edit: Magebane is rather lovely too, especially for a duel-wielder/thousand-cuts kind of guy.
    I just looked into that. That is unbelievable. Thanks for that one.

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Troll in the Playground
     
    HalflingRogueGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Better Shortsword?

    One of the nastiest weapon enchantments is Lifedrinker, straight out of the DMG. However, you have to be undead to make good use of it (or at least otherwise immune to negative levels). I think it was MIC that said you could apply specific enchantments to other weapons if you wanted. Either way, two negative levels per hit is insanely good.

    Eager and Warning add a combined +7 to initiative for a total of +2, so that's solid... but I like to keep those on my armor spikes. Assassination is great if you use poison... +1d6 sneak attack damage, and add the enhancement bonus of your weapon (which should be +5 if you got a Tooth of Leraje) to poison DCs, for just +1 bonus. Blurstriking can be handy too... +2 for the ability to flat foot an opponent 10 times per day. Keen is great if you switch to Kukris (note that Shortswords are piecing, not slashing), and is far better if you slap Enfeebling on there for the strength drain... that does 1d6+2 str damage when you critically hit even against crit immunes, for just a +1 bonus.

    JaronK

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