Powerful Build and Natural Weapons

[Admiral Squish]

So, the basic question is does half-dragon goliath, just to make an example, get medium claws, or large claws? (Or wings, for that matter?) And what about a half-giant monk? Does the powerful build mean he uses the 'large' table for his unarmed damage?

[Urpriest]

In a word, no. While Powerful Build lets the character use larger weapons, it does not automatically make any weapon wielded large. That includes natural weapons.

[Worlok]

On the other hand, Races of Stone gives us the feral gargun, a sort of more primal, more beast-like goliath. They are medium-sized and possess the powerful build trait. They also get two claw attacks, each of whom deals 1d6 base damage, that is, as much as a large set of claws would deal according to the natural weapon damage chart of the half-dragon template (medium size = 1d4 base damage per claw). So I'd say that powerful build does indeed make natural attacks based on the forequarters - claws on the front legs or the arms, unarmed strikes - count as one size category larger, but not those based around things unaffected by build, meaning bite attacks, gore attacks with horns or antlers, arguably claws on the hind legs... Hope that helps.

[Keld Denar]

Not all claws are created equal. A quick glance over Magic of Incarnum has medium claws running the whole gambit from 1d3 (Girallon Arms) to 1d8 (Sphinx Claws), with a couple at 1d4 and 1d6 in between.

There are no general rules for what size claws a creature should have, only specific ones. Maybe the creature you cited naturally has 1d6 claws, and PB doesn't affect his damage, or maybe he should have 1d4 claws and PB does affect him. We'll never no because there is no rule to follow.

I'd say that the closest RAW answer mimics Urpriest's post. It wouldn't be a terrible house rule though, unless the player was planning on stacking effective size increases like crazy to be abusive...

[Vknight]

Yeah I would say d4 but it all depends upon the DM. I would say no becasue with the right build you could have something that rivals a Troll, Half-Dragon.

[KillianHawkeye]

There are plenty of monsters who have natural damage values which are higher than the "typical" values for a monster of their size. For example, a true dragon's bite and claw attacks have a damage die one size higher than those of an equal sized half-dragon, half-fiend, or half-troll creature. Similarly, a ghast's bite and claw attacks have a damage die one size higher than an equal sized ghoul has.

None of these creatures have powerful build, their natural attacks are just stronger than average.

[Vknight]

Or things like a Troll were it's lower then average there Bite attack is 1die lower then an average Large sized creature.

[KillianHawkeye]

Yes, there are many examples of nonstandard natural attack damage dice, both larger and smaller than the norm.

[Vknight]

So now you Know and Knowing is half the battle!

[MeeposFire]

G I Joe!!!

[Coidzor]

I'd say that the closest RAW answer mimics Urpriest's post. It wouldn't be a terrible house rule though, unless the player was planning on stacking effective size increases like crazy to be abusive...

I don't really see how it can be abusive since doing the same thing with manufactured weapons is generally viewed as a waste of time and money.

[Greenish]

Not all claws are created equal. A quick glance over Magic of Incarnum has medium claws running the whole gambit from 1d3 (Girallon Arms) to 1d8 (Sphinx Claws), with a couple at 1d4 and 1d6 in between.

Girallon Arms are d4, maybe because some people don't have d3's lying around.

[Worlok]

Ah, heck. Of course you're right, there are all sorts of exceptions to the size-natweap-thing. Which arguably isn't even a thing. Anyhow, I ran a little research, I have been wrong in my assumption, have some FAQ-answers from WotC:

Does the powerful build racial trait allow a character to take advantage of feats for size Large or larger creatures, such as Awesome Blow? Would a half-dragon goliath qualify as Large for determining whether it has wings?

No and no. The powerful build racial trait (found in the goliath entry in Races of Stone and the half-giant entry in Expanded Psionics Handbook) spells out exactly when the character is treated as one size larger than normal:

1. Whenever subjected to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check. This includes grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts.

2. When determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size can affect him. This includes improved grab and swallow whole.

3. When determining what size of weapons the character can use.

That’s it. The character isn’t treated as one size larger when determining space, reach, Hide check penalty, or for the purpose of qualifying for anything that requires size.

Some feats, prestige classes, or other game elements may specifically allow a Medium character with powerful build to qualify as if he were Large. Such examples are specific and intentional exceptions to the normal rule.

Does the powerful build racial trait change the damage the character deals with unarmed strikes and natural weapons?

No. The powerful build racial trait allows the character to “use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty” but doesn’t say anything about changing the damage dealt by his unarmed strikes or natural weapons.

Still, I liked my forequarters-theory...

[UserClone]

So now you Know and Knowing is half the battle!

G I Joe!!!

Couldn't resist.

Spoiler

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[Vknight]

Wait that's not right.
Knowing is 50%
Red Lasers 20%
Blue Lasers 20%
Ninjas 10%

[Keld Denar]

I thought the other half of the battle was gratuitous violence...

[Coidzor]

I thought the other half of the battle was gratuitous violence...

Delivered via laser, ninja, and Mr. T.

[Vknight]

Exactly except the Ninja does not use lasers.
He uses a sword & somehow is more deadly then the people with the lasers.
Maybe it's the awesome bonus Ninja get?

[Keld Denar]

Probably just an application of the Law of Conservation of Ninjitsu. The awesomeness of any given ninja is inversely proportional to the number of other ninjas on his team.

[MeeposFire]

Probably just an application of the Law of Conservation of Ninjitsu. The awesomeness of any given ninja is inversely proportional to the number of other ninjas on his team.

Which is the opposite of pirates.

[Vknight]

You sure about that?
Watch One Piece I think thats why a group of Pirate verses a Group of Ninja will be unable to end in eithers victory which is why we have Pirate.VS.Ninja

[Keld Denar]

What was the topic of discussion again?

[Vknight]

I think Natural Weapons? With a creature that has Powerful Build?
Anyone else know I forgot?

[subject42]

Sorry to get on topic, but I think that the weapon damage would increase.

Powerful build states that you are considered large in all cases that it is considered beneficial to be large. Since being large increases your natural weapon damage, and increased weapon damage is advantageous, I think you'd get it.

[Vknight]

Sorry to get on topic, but I think that the weapon damage would increase.

Powerful build states that you are considered large in all cases that it is considered beneficial to be large. Since being large increases your natural weapon damage, and increased weapon damage is advantageous, I think you'd get it.

It does so yeah it would make sense.

[Keld Denar]

Powerful Build is actually very specific in what it does and doesn't do.

If you are making an opposed check, you can be treated as one size larger if its advantageous to you WRT that check.

If you are wielding a weapon, that weapon may be sized up to one size larger, and you can still weild it without penalties.

Thats it. You aren't actually larger, just treated as larger for a few explicit things. Natural attack damage is not one of those things. Whether this was intentional or neglegent, we'll never know, but as written, thats what it says.

[KillianHawkeye]

Powerful build states that you are considered large in all cases that it is considered beneficial to be large.

It actually does not say that at all, as already posted above. (emphasis added)

[Vknight]

yeah but we all wish it worked for every case it is benficial.

[KillianHawkeye]

yeah but we all wish it worked for every case it is benficial.

If wishes were horses, you could ride all the way to Dreamland.

[Vknight]

Actually to NeverNeverLand