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    Halfling in the Playground
     
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    Default 3.5 Does adding a Headband of Intellect loose you your Animal Companion?

    I tossed a Headband of Intellect into game treasure. It ended up in the druid's hands. He was about to put it on when it occured to him that with a 3 intelegence he could teach his companion the rudiments of common. Any other player this might have been a seen as a great idea but the player in question already irritates the group with his companion antics (He's a good guy but doesn't know when enough is enough). So the whole table collectivelly groaned until it occured to them that a 3 INTcreature is not an animal any more and so cannot be a companion. I told them I'd hit the books and get back to them.

    What this really made me realize is I need to talk to the druid and get him to stop monopolizing the table with jokes that the rest of the players can't be part of. I'll do that sometime this week but the actual question I'm still not sure about. So what's the verdict? Without the druid taking something like improved companion does the + to INT negate the animal companion bond?
    Thanks

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    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: 3.5 Does adding a Headband of Intellect loose you your Animal Companion?

    I once tried to put a hat on my dog. He knocked it off and started to eat it. Just sayin'.

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    Default Re: 3.5 Does adding a Headband of Intellect loose you your Animal Companion?

    You're the DM. What you say, goes. Period, end of discussion.

    It's not nice, but it's your right.
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    Default Re: 3.5 Does adding a Headband of Intellect loose you your Animal Companion?

    I'd say that the temporary enhancement bonus won't allow the creature to actually learn anything, or at least that any progress made would be forgotten.


    If the real problem here is the player, you need to deal with that. Don't approach the issue indirectly- just tell the guy you need to talk about his antics. I'm not saying you should be rude or critical or anything, but basing your decisions on the annoying antics of a player is a bad idea.
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    Default Re: 3.5 Does adding a Headband of Intellect loose you your Animal Companion?

    I would rule that it is still an animal. The item only increases the intelligence for as long as it is worn. It's a bit more of a gray area were Fox's Cunning used with Permanency.

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    Default Re: 3.5 Does adding a Headband of Intellect loose you your Animal Companion?

    With a quick glance at the druid entry in SRD, I didn't see anything preventing them from keeping a companion with 3+ int. I'm probably missing something, but maybe it's just Awaken that has the specific language to prevent it (and the way Awaken is written makes it sound like it's the type change that disqualifies the recipient from remaining an AC).
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    Default Re: 3.5 Does adding a Headband of Intellect loose you your Animal Companion?

    Yes, I agree; the animal is still an animal, albeit with enhanced intelligence. If you were to increase the animal's INT with a Wish, that would be different. I agree that he would forget what he learned while he had the headband on if he were to remove it.

    I don't see why being able to use Common to communicate with your animal companion would be a problem; wizards can communicate with their familiars, and that doesn't cause any issues, at least none that I'm aware of.

    Besides, it will force your problem player to RP his animal companion, and more RP is a good thing.
    Last edited by Callista; 2011-01-24 at 03:22 PM.

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    Default Re: 3.5 Does adding a Headband of Intellect loose you your Animal Companion?

    Once an animal companion gains Int 3+, it is no longer an animal, but a proper NPC under the control of the DM. As such, if the DM says, "your former companion gets smarter and decides he doesn't want to serve you anymore", he is within his rights to do so.

    Unless a character has a feat or ability that specifically allows him to control another sentient creature (such as Paladin's mount), I'd say Int +3 means he (the creature) gets to make his own mind.

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    Default Re: 3.5 Does adding a Headband of Intellect loose you your Animal Companion?

    He's had his own mind before, though. If he wants to stay an animal companion, why wouldn't he?

    So here's the question: How well has that animal been treated while it was an animal companion? Would it want to stay?

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    Default Re: 3.5 Does adding a Headband of Intellect loose you your Animal Companion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Callista View Post
    Yes, I agree; the animal is still an animal, albeit with enhanced intelligence. If you were to increase the animal's INT with a Wish, that would be different. I agree that he would forget what he learned while he had the headband on if he were to remove it.

    I don't see why being able to use Common to communicate with your animal companion would be a problem; wizards can communicate with their familiars, and that doesn't cause any issues, at least none that I'm aware of.

    Besides, it will force your problem player to RP his animal companion, and more RP is a good thing.
    I wouldn't count on the more RP is good thing. If the problem is the player likes to be the center of attention, sometimes more RP just gives them an easy justification for it.
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    Default Re: 3.5 Does adding a Headband of Intellect loose you your Animal Companion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenish View Post
    That's not very helpful.
    It helps, does it not? Yeah, it's the last way out, but if all else fails...
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    Default Re: 3.5 Does adding a Headband of Intellect loose you your Animal Companion?

    I see this like Gunther from Futurama. As long as the headband is on, the the animal will have sentience. Though in this case the level of retardation may in fact make it less capable than when it only had instincts.

    Actually, that is how I'd play it. Int 3 is so close to functionally incompetent and cannot be a valid character that granting it to a creature that previously was a purely animal intelligence is going to make it worse, as these new high brain functions make it behave differently, hesitate, ponder, question orders as bet it can, and so much more.

    Also, yes, talk to your druid. Full-table groan antics need to be politely dealt with.
    Last edited by MammonAzrael; 2011-01-24 at 03:27 PM.

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    Default Re: 3.5 Does adding a Headband of Intellect loose you your Animal Companion?

    Quote Originally Posted by MammonAzrael View Post
    Int 3 … cannot be a valid character
    Yes it can. Below that, no, but int 3 is technically a playable character. In fact, WotC had a tip somewhere that when you've rolled poorly, you could just take half-orc for the strength and put the lowest score to int, since it can't go below 3.
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: 3.5 Does adding a Headband of Intellect loose you your Animal Companion?

    Remember that there is more to learning a language than just intelligence and even at 3 int it would take a human a long time to learn a language at adulthood (and if they do not know a language at all it can be nearly impossible as evidenced by the times we have found people with no language and trying to teach them language is extremely difficult). Further most animals lack the ability to speak even if they have the intelligence.

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    Default Re: 3.5 Does adding a Headband of Intellect loose you your Animal Companion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenish View Post
    Yes it can. Below that, no, but int 3 is technically a playable character. In fact, WotC had a tip somewhere that when you've rolled poorly, you could just take half-orc for the strength and put the lowest score to int, since it can't go below 3.
    Yup, you can play INT 3. It's an RP challenge, but it's possible--it just means you're in the lowest half-percent of the population as far as intelligence goes. In the Real World, many people in that group can take care of themselves, live either on their own or with family/spouse, and hold unskilled jobs. So it's not as big a problem as you might think--though, mechanically, you're going to have serious skill point issues.

    Yeah, it would take a while to teach the animal Common... still, I think it's a cool idea and I still wouldn't forbid it.

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    Default Re: 3.5 Does adding a Headband of Intellect loose you your Animal Companion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Callista View Post
    ...--though, mechanically, you're going to have serious skill point issues.
    Nah, not really. INT 3 half orc fighter has the same number of skill points as INT 8 half orc fighter and the latter is significantly brighter than the former.
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    Default Re: 3.5 Does adding a Headband of Intellect loose you your Animal Companion?

    You'd have to name him Algernon, though.
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    Default Re: 3.5 Does adding a Headband of Intellect loose you your Animal Companion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vladislav View Post
    Once an animal companion gains Int 3+, it is no longer an animal, but a proper NPC under the control of the DM. As such, if the DM says, "your former companion gets smarter and decides he doesn't want to serve you anymore", he is within his rights to do so.

    Unless a character has a feat or ability that specifically allows him to control another sentient creature (such as Paladin's mount), I'd say Int +3 means he (the creature) gets to make his own mind.
    Interesting. Hadn't thought about the creature becoming NPC AND sticking around. Actually he has been treated well by the druid. The rest of the party at times takes out their frustrations with the way the druid behaves on the creature but nothing horrible. So in my eyes that as long as the headband is on the animal he is my job to play. No headband and I'll keep letting the druid run him (though even before the headband I ran the animal when appropriate).

    Quote Originally Posted by Callista View Post
    Besides, it will force your problem player to RP his animal companion, and more RP is a good thing.
    Callista Role-playing is a great thing but as WarKitty pointed out the player really does command the spotlight way too often. He can burn through 20 minutes of stupid animal tricks already I can easily see that time doubling if the druid and animal could converse at the same time.

    I realize that I need to fix the root problem which is the player's behavior but until I saw this fight building it really hadn't seemed quite so bad.

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    Default Re: 3.5 Does adding a Headband of Intellect loose you your Animal Companion?

    Its been stated, but I'll flesh it out a bit more. An animal with an Int score of 3+ ceases to be an animal and becomes a Magical Beast. Magical Beasts are not valid targets for ACs without special dispensation, so the animal can, and should, leave the PC.

    Plus, you can then get into all kinds of fun moral debates about sapience. Technically, taking off the hat would DESTROY the creatures sapience. From certain points of view, this is the same as killing the creature.

    Have fun with that little can of worms...
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    Default Re: 3.5 Does adding a Headband of Intellect loose you your Animal Companion?

    Well, bear in mind that even if the animal is smarter, it doesn't actually entitle them to speech. Sure, the Druid could use Speak to Animals, but he could have done that before.

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    Default Re: 3.5 Does adding a Headband of Intellect loose you your Animal Companion?

    Quote Originally Posted by CapnCJ View Post
    I once tried to put a hat on my dog. He knocked it off and started to eat it. Just sayin'.
    This here. For the lolz.
    Last edited by Crow; 2011-01-24 at 03:45 PM.
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    Default Re: 3.5 Does adding a Headband of Intellect loose you your Animal Companion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
    Plus, you can then get into all kinds of fun moral debates about sapience. Technically, taking off the hat would DESTROY the creatures sapience. From certain points of view, this is the same as killing the creature.

    Have fun with that little can of worms...
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    Default Re: 3.5 Does adding a Headband of Intellect loose you your Animal Companion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chells View Post
    So the whole table collectivelly groaned until it occured to them that a 3 INTcreature is not an animal any more and so cannot be a companion.
    Err, no. The type doesn't change simply by the intelligence being boosted, otherwise fox's cunning would be a massive debuff to a druid's animal companion, taking off all of those extra HD.

    It's entirely up to you whether the animal companion bond is dissolved in such a way, but any ruling would be homebrew since the rules just don't address it.

    Now, giving it sapience with an Int of 4, 6, or 8 would definitely have it make sense for it to take on more NPC characteristics... I don't think one could just order such an animal companion into committing obvious suicide without bluffing or otherwise convincing it that it wasn't suicide or was somehow worth it. I believe raising its intelligence would by RAW have handle animal stop affecting it, if I'm remembering correctly. But this is just personal feelings/recollections rather than explicit RAW.


    The Handle Animal Guide has some thoughts on the matter of animals in general and a bit about animal companions as well.


    I believe as well that a relatively common thing is for DM's to decide to just have such NPCs decide to leave the druid's company or become cohorts and houserule it to fit the leadership scheme.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chells View Post
    What this really made me realize is I need to talk to the druid and get him to stop monopolizing the table with jokes that the rest of the players can't be part of.
    This seems to be a separate issue that needs to be dealt with if it's aggravating the rest of the group, yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
    An animal with an Int score of 3+ ceases to be an animal and becomes a Magical Beast.
    Your justification for this? Considering that it's not being achieved with the Awaken spell.

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    Last edited by Coidzor; 2011-01-24 at 03:54 PM.
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    Default Re: 3.5 Does adding a Headband of Intellect loose you your Animal Companion?

    It would still be an animal, sure, but I think at that point while it were to wear that headband it acts more like a natural beast or something like that.

    If the animal were to become sentient, and it choose to stay with the group it should have its own initiative, not have to listen to the druid, no more empathic link or any of that stuff. Think about it. The premise of a man and his beast is a symbiotic relationship that they rely on each other. Dogs, in real life, have evolved to show emotion in in their facial features to communicate with humans because the humans can do things for them they they are not intelligent to do for themselves, like go to Walmart and get them a treat.

    Now if that animal were smart enough to learn on their own and begin to understand the world as we do, then their desire to follow us would be second to them trying to figure it out themselves, no matter how difficult or impossible it would be. Think of small children of mentally challenged individuals. If they have the mental capacity to survive on their own, they will try to do what they think is the best course of action.

    Bottom line, you would have to share the XP with it and I don't think anyone in the group would want that.

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    Default Re: 3.5 Does adding a Headband of Intellect loose you your Animal Companion?

    I'd say the creature is now under DM control as an NPC. It can learn a language and even gain class levels as any character can. (2 skill points per language. with an int of 3 that means 2 levels to get a single one, likely common.)

    If the headband is removed all class levels and associated bonuses, (like languages) are disabled, but not removed. If it gains enough int to qualify for class levels again it gets them back.

    I'd let it keep all the bonuses it got from being an animal companion up to the point it became sentient, but these count as a racial level adjustment, so leveling up in a class will take a while.

    If for example both it and the druid level up then the headband is removed, it would become an animal companion again with all it's benefits from the druid's level reduced by one and all class benefits lost.

    While it's an NPC without a language the druid can still order it like he did as a companion... but it might not do as it's told.

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    Default Re: 3.5 Does adding a Headband of Intellect loose you your Animal Companion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    Your justification for this? Considering that it's not being achieved with the Awaken spell.
    Ah, missed it the first time. It's in the entry for Animal type: "no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal".
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    Default Re: 3.5 Does adding a Headband of Intellect loose you your Animal Companion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenish View Post
    Ah, missed it the first time. It's in the entry for Animal type: "no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal".
    Oh, goody, a typeless creature.
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    Default Re: 3.5 Does adding a Headband of Intellect loose you your Animal Companion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenish View Post
    Ah, missed it the first time. It's in the entry for Animal type: "no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal".
    That is exactly the rule the other players were quoting to prove that it couldn't be an ANIMAL companion anymore.

    As for EXP would it just be a cohort and so no EXP loss to the other players?

    Granted what I am beginning to realize is that the person who is most likely going to be affected by a stupid +2 abilty buff item is me for crying out loud. Who would have thought a basic game item could possibly generate me having to roleplay a full time NPC. This is why I outlawed leadership. I have enough to do DMing the game without playing a character too. Ok I'm done bitching. Sorry about that.
    Last edited by Chells; 2011-01-24 at 04:36 PM.

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    Default Re: 3.5 Does adding a Headband of Intellect loose you your Animal Companion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chells View Post
    As for EXP would it just be a cohort and so no EXP loss to the other players?
    It can only be a cohort if the Druid has the Leadership feat. You can't just gain a cohort willy-nilly. Normally, it'd just be an NPC who gets his share of XP.

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    Default Re: 3.5 Does adding a Headband of Intellect loose you your Animal Companion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vladislav View Post
    Once an animal companion gains Int 3+, it is no longer an animal, but a proper NPC under the control of the DM. As such, if the DM says, "your former companion gets smarter and decides he doesn't want to serve you anymore", he is within his rights to do so.

    Unless a character has a feat or ability that specifically allows him to control another sentient creature (such as Paladin's mount), I'd say Int +3 means he (the creature) gets to make his own mind.
    There is of course no rule that directly states that. What exactly does it's type become then? And how does it change the type of the creature by having an int of 3? Does it become a humanoid under some mysterious power? It's not a magical creature to be certain.
    Last edited by Innis Cabal; 2011-01-24 at 04:44 PM.

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