[3.5] Crime and Punishment

[kamikasei]

What are some ways you can think of that both criminals and authorities would use or work around magic?

For example: perhaps large cities can ask clerics to speak with dead to question murder victims. In response, perhaps it's standard practice for murderers to dismember their victims' jaws to sabotage the spell.

Perhaps powerful individuals never, ever throw anything away intact that could be used to empower a scrying attempt, taking pains to burn all hair or nail trimmings, for example.

What sorts of restrictions might be imposed at meetings between hostile parties to prevent the use of magic? A rule that a caster cannot lift her hands from the table, for example, to deny somatic components. "Readers" to check correspondence for traps or enchantments, filling a role similar to poison "tasters". What else?

What protocols might any organization use to be sure that a person or a correspondence is or is from who it claims to be, was not intercepted en route, etc.?

For a half-rules, half-fluff question: how easily can charm person and similar spells be cast on a target without a) them realizing it (assuming they fail their save), and/or b) other witnesses realizing it? Charm person has a verbal component, but is it intended to be something that can be worked in to normal conversation, or indeed to be normal conversation given magical power?

What are the best ways to keep a spellcaster prisoner?

To serve as a baseline, let's say Eberron using only core and ECS material. However, ideas using other sources, or for homebrew settings, are certainly welcome.

[LansXero]

Well, speak with dead would only work in the cases where the victim knows who/what killed him, which doesnt always happen. So murderers would try to not be seen / recognized all the harder (which they probably do already anyways in case the victim survives).

Meetings probably either happen with a high level caster per-side, or inside an AMF; probably using telepaths to check for lies / deceit.

I think the best way to keep an spellcaster prisoner would be to completely encase them in crystal / carbonite / ice / stasis goo or something.

[true_shinken]

In your given environment, antimagic shackles would be enough for most casters. Beware most pseudocasters or gishes, though - you might only find out about how hard they hit after they are denied their spells.
This thread is awesome.

[kamikasei]

Well, speak with dead would only work in the cases where the victim knows who/what killed him, which doesnt always happen. So murderers would try to not be seen / recognized all the harder (which they probably do already anyways in case the victim survives).

This is true, of course. Still, there's such a thing as accidental killing which still might be covered up. There would be layers to this: removing the jaw might be the mark of a professional, which means professionals might want to avoid it in some cases so as not to tip their hands, which means working via proxies... The law might punish murder more severely if you attempted to cover it up in this way...

Meetings probably either happen with a high level caster per-side, or inside an AMF; probably using telepaths to check for lies / deceit.

I think the best way to keep an spellcaster prisoner would be to completely encase them in crystal / carbonite / ice / stasis goo or something.

These are rather high-level solutions; I'm aiming for things usuable from first level on up, things that could soak in to an entire culture as a matter of custom, with an assumption that a fifth-level character should have a fair bit of power within her society.

[Mastikator]

Are we talking Tippyverse law-system or...?

Anyway, one thing to take note of is that any given caster that is more powerful than the state's most powerful caster is going to be above the law.

I can also totally see the state using scying to spy on their own citizens, perhaps have some kind of watch list that are under heavier surveillance, perhaps also scanning areas that are suspected of having high crime. Powerful casters that can repell scrying with magic are obviously immune to this, unless protecting yourself with that is illegal.
Also, if it's a citizens right to not be scryed on... then they'd probably still do it, just not use it as evidence in court.

I can also imagine rogue organizations that the administration doesn't know about (wink wink) that "disappears" people and casting mind-rape on others so they forget about the people who've been disappeared.

Dangerous criminal suspects would probably be turned into stone for indefinite detention. Not before their minds are read though.


I imagine neutralizing de-buffs and status effects being heavy in use against criminals, spells such as Sleep, Deep Slumper, Hypnotism would be common.

[LansXero]

There could be naturally-ocurring No-Magic zones which because of it have become diplomatic centers. Sorts of a non-shennanigans outpost for businessmen and other people to discuss their affairs without blowing up buildings.

[pasko77]

I'm aiming for things usuable from first level on up, things that could soak in to an entire culture as a matter of custom, with an assumption that a fifth-level character should have a fair bit of power within her society.

It depends on how drastic these measures need to be. From handcuffing-gagging to cutting hands and tongue, it is a preliminary good measure (but not only against casters).

Removing component pouches is another obvious idea, as it is to install some detectors of said components (bat guano smell detector? )

The same for clerics and divine symbols. But nothing of this is original, it is a subset of the concept of "disarming the prisoner".

[DeltaEmil]

Charm person has a verbal component, but is it intended to be something that can be worked in to normal conversation, or indeed to be normal conversation given magical power?

Charm Person can never be used to "conceal" it in a normal discussion, unless you have specific feats or class abilities that explicitely allow you to do so. Without the Silent Spell feat for example, you'll have to loudly yell or audibly speak whatever words of magick must be spoken for a charm person (be it abracadabra, Youaremyfriendibus, or Tsching-Tschang-Tschung). And people will know about it. At least in the opinion of the WotC-sage.

Spoiler

Show

Q: Dear Sage,
When you cast charm person, can the verbal component sound like regular conversation and the somatic component look like normal gestures, such as shaking hands?
--Roy

A: No. You can’t cast charm person by saying hi and shaking someone’s hand.

A spell’s verbal components don’t sound like normal speech, and a spell’s somatic components don’t look like normal gestures. When someone’s casting a spell, it’s pretty obvious that they’re casting a spell (though not always obvious what spell they’re casting).

There are plenty of feats, class features, and skill tricks that can let you conceal or alter a spell’s verbal and somatic components. The right combination might allow you to pull off the trick you’re describing.

[Essence_of_War]

What are the best ways to keep a spellcaster prisoner?

Lock them up in an AMF. Unless they have 9th level spells, they are probably stuck.

In a setting where this can be an important thing, I could imagine a magic item being invented, like a set of manacles that creates a 5-10 foot AMF when they are locked.

If you don't have an AMF:
Dimension Lock + Forcecage can at least hold them in one place. If they have access to disintegrate though, that might not be enough. With a disintegrate and a couple of dimension doors a spellcaster could still easily get out of there.

[Essence_of_War]

For charm person, you'll need to use something like silent+still or the sudden versions so that people don't notice. Alternatively, psionics have no components. There are displays, but they can be suppressed with concentration checks.

[DeltaEmil]

And the most important thing: Guards that do keep watch reliably.
Anti-magic fields, manacles, blindfolds or mouth-gags are all useless if nobody keeps an eye on magical perpetrator, who are Escape Artists, or have smuggled a mundane item in to get rid of these stuff. Given time, even a butterknive or a wooden spoon will help people hscape.
Active security trumps passive security.

[Ason]

If you want to be extra-clever, you could take a page from the Order of the Stick and have restrictions in place against the use of magic in legal matters. In a freedom-focused state, divinations and charms could be considered illegal for the government to use due to the risk of violating suspects' rights. I'd be careful about implementing this, however, if you are worried about your players abusing this to go on a murderous rampage in response to their increased freedom.

[DeltaEmil]

Eh, Cliffport rather shows that it's build and governed by n00bs.