[PF] Tome of Battle Concentration substitute?

[Cieyrin]

One of the things I like about Pathfinder is the skill overhaul, making adventurers more likely to be competent at adventuring that doesn't involve hitting things that jingle and whatnot. I also like having my 3.5 splatbooks available and Tome of Battle in particular.

The issue, as evidenced by the title, is since Concentration got cut as a skill for being a class feature, this leaves Diamond Mind and its heavy use of Concentration high and dry. I'm sure I'm not the first to come across this problem, so what does the Playground do in this situation? Since we're talking this, what skills do we substitute in for skills that got absorbed/replaced in other disciplines?

{table=head]Discipline|Former Associated Skill|Suggested PF Associated Skill

Desert Wind|Tumble|Acrobatics

Devoted Spirit|Intimidate|Intimidate

Diamond Mind|Concentration|Perception/Autohypnosis

Iron Heart|Balance|Acrobatics

Setting Sun|Sense Motive|Sense Motive

Shadow Hand|Hide|Stealth

Stone Dragon|Balance|Acrobatics

Tiger Claw|Jump|Acrobatics

White Raven|Diplomacy|Diplomacy[/table]

...okay, maybe it all works out fairly easily except for Diamond Mind, with a preponderance of Acrobatics substitutions, which coincidentally makes getting into Master of Nine that much harder to get into...

EDIT: Consensus says Perception if core PF, Autohypnosis if Psionics Unleashed/XPH are on the table. Thanks Playground!

[FMArthur]

You know, even though it doesn't convert directly from Concentration, I think Perception fits best for Diamond Mind and its maneuvers.

[Caphi]

A friend of mine tested using Autohypnosis with the psionic flavor filed off. It doesn't work too badly, and the actual mechanics of the skill fit nicely with Diamond Mind as well as Iron Heart.

As a bonus, we also discovered that it works excellently for even non-psionic characters to express a warrior who is just supremely disciplined and awesome. Maybe you should give it to fighters.

[Cieyrin]

You know, even though it doesn't convert directly from Concentration, I think Perception fits best for Diamond Mind and its maneuvers.

Hmm, Perception wouldn't be bad for some of the strikes, though it's a bit jarring when we talk about the save replacers, like Moment of Perfect Mind.

A friend of mine tested using Autohypnosis with the psionic flavor filed off. It doesn't work too badly, and the actual mechanics of the skill fit nicely with Diamond Mind as well as Iron Heart.

As a bonus, we also discovered that it works excellently for even non-psionic characters to express a warrior who is just supremely disciplined and awesome. Maybe you should give it to fighters.

Not a bad idea, as I've always been a fan of the skill, though it's not technically a PF skill, unless we look at Psionics Unleashed. Still, I've always been of the thought that combining Autohypnosis and Concentration into one skill in regular 3.5 would be a good move and carrying on with that here wouldn't be bad, either.

[dgnslyr]

You're so perceptive that you understand the nature of the incoming attack, and can adapt accordingly? Makes sense for reflex, at least.

[Saph]

I vote for Autohypnosis. It fits the flavour best: Diamond Mind is supposed to be all about inner balance.

[Person_Man]

+1 on Autohypnosis.

Iaijutsu Focus would also work, without any change to fluff.

[FMArthur]

Hmm, Perception wouldn't be bad for some of the strikes, though it's a bit jarring when we talk about the save replacers, like Moment of Perfect Mind.

Keep in mind that 'perception' is a very mental thing - it's not just 'senses'. But if you are using Psionics Unleashed, Autohypnosis is the most direct analogue. It always was more or less the same thing.

edit: this is stupid, obviously you're using 3.5 material regardless of whether PF is in play or you wouldn't be talking about ToB. Autohypnosis is still in just by default.

[Psyren]

Not a bad idea, as I've always been a fan of the skill, though it's not technically a PF skill, unless we look at Psionics Unleashed. Still, I've always been of the thought that combining Autohypnosis and Concentration into one skill in regular 3.5 would be a good move and carrying on with that here wouldn't be bad, either.

For a detailed look at the differences between 3.5 and PF Autohypnosis, see my sig.

(And throw my vote there as well)

[dgnslyr]

Autohypnosis would work, but I'm not sure about choosing it, because it's not really a "standard" skill, is it? Or just give all ToB classes Autohypnosis as a class skill, that would work.

[Psyren]

Autohypnosis would work, but I'm not sure about choosing it, because it's not really a "standard" skill, is it? Or just give all ToB classes Autohypnosis as a class skill, that would work.

While this is certainly feasible - whether something is a class skill or not isn't nearly as big a deal in Pathfinder

[Cieyrin]

You're so perceptive that you understand the nature of the incoming attack, and can adapt accordingly? Makes sense for reflex, at least.

Keep in mind that 'perception' is a very mental thing - it's not just 'senses'. But if you are using Psionics Unleashed, Autohypnosis is the most direct analogue. It always was more or less the same thing.

edit: this is stupid, obviously you're using 3.5 material regardless of whether PF is in play or you wouldn't be talking about ToB. Autohypnosis is still in just by default.

On Perception, yeah, that does actually make a lot of sense, put that way.

I vote for Autohypnosis. It fits the flavour best: Diamond Mind is supposed to be all about inner balance.

+1 on Autohypnosis.

Iaijutsu Focus would also work, without any change to fluff.

I agree on Autohypnosis, as I said earlier, though not so sure on Iaijutsu Focus, as Diamond Mind kinda has that bit covered via the strikes and is not quite the same as the inner balance of Autohypnosis.

So, basically, the consensus is Perception if we're just talking core PF, Autohypnosis if Psionics Unleashed/XPH if they're available (not necessarily in my case, my RL DM has a weird knee jerk banning reaction to psionics that I don't quite grok). Thanks, all!

[gourdcaptain]

Not really a fan of splitting the skills involved by school - increases the number of skills you have to raise if you aren't a die hard focus on one class. My DM and I were discussing doing it as an initiator level + important stat for class check(Wis for swordsages, Cha for Crusaders?) ala spellcasters, but that's still under debate.

[Greenish]

Not really a fan of splitting the skills involved by school - increases the number of skills you have to raise if you aren't a die hard focus on one class.

Not all schools require investment to their key skill, or even benefit from it.

• There's one Desert Wind stance that depends on Tumble ranks.
• No White Raven maneuver has any interaction with Diplomacy.
• No Devoted Spirit maneuver has any interaction with Intimidate.
• No Iron Heart or Stone Dragon maneuver has any interaction with Balance.

I don't recall any Shadow Hand maneuver specifically needing Hide, though some of them benefit from it. I can only think of one Setting Sun maneuver that builds on Sense Motive.

[Cieyrin]

Not all schools require investment to their key skill, or even benefit from it.

• There's one Desert Wind stance that depends on Tumble ranks.
• No White Raven maneuver has any interaction with Diplomacy.
• No Devoted Spirit maneuver has any interaction with Intimidate.
• No Iron Heart or Stone Dragon maneuver has any interaction with Balance.

I don't recall any Shadow Hand maneuver specifically needing Hide, though some of them benefit from it. I can only think of one Setting Sun maneuver that builds on Sense Motive.

I probably wouldn't have bothered with this thread at all if Diamond Mind wasn't so Concentration heavy but it is.

[Endarire]

You could make a separate skill for it, like "Old School Concentration," or use 3.5's Concentration instead.

[Cieyrin]

You could make a separate skill for it, like "Old School Concentration," or use 3.5's Concentration instead.

Nah, making a skill just so I have a skill to use seems not worthwhile.

[Psyren]

You could make a separate skill for it, like "Old School Concentration," or use 3.5's Concentration instead.

My PF casters/manifesters would grab that in a heartbeat, taking Human Paragon or even cross-class ranks if necessary.

[Cieyrin]

My PF casters/manifesters would grab that in a heartbeat, taking Human Paragon or even cross-class ranks if necessary.

Idk if that would work the way you think it does but that's the area of brew at this point.

[Ravens_cry]

Make Concentration checks the Pathfinder way?
Though you now have to decide now what counts as the 'casting stat'.

[Garryl]

You could use Constitution, the original stat for Concentration and at least a secondary stat for all martial adepts. You could use Wisdom, the stat that sets the save DCs of all of the Diamond Mind maneuvers with saves. Or you could use the stat that each of the three martial adepts focuses on in a tertiary manner (Wis for Swordsage, Int for Warblade, Cha for Crusader), but that does leave non-martial adepts who got access another way out in the cold.

[Psyren]

Idk if that would work the way you think it does but that's the area of brew at this point.

It's a skill. That automatically makes it better than Pathfinder Concentration, because a skill is far easier to boost than a caster level check (which is how Concentration works in PF.)

[begooler]

How about sense motive? I think it kind of goes along with the whole "an enemy defeated in the mind's battlefield" flavor. Also, it fits with maneuvers to replace a skill check for saves. You sense what your enemy is about to do and act accordingly.
It's also kind of amusing with the Con check to do damage deal. "I perceive my enemy so well I'm going to damage him with my mind!"

[FMArthur]

How about sense motive? I think it kind of goes along with the whole "an enemy defeated in the mind's battlefield" flavor. Also, it fits with maneuvers to replace a skill check for saves. You sense what your enemy is about to do and act accordingly.
It's also kind of amusing with the Con check to do damage deal. "I perceive my enemy so well I'm going to damage him with my mind!"

Perhaps you are not talking about the skill you think you are...

[Greenish]

How about sense motive? I think it kind of goes along with the whole "an enemy defeated in the mind's battlefield" flavor. Also, it fits with maneuvers to replace a skill check for saves. You sense what your enemy is about to do and act accordingly.
It's also kind of amusing with the Con check to do damage deal. "I perceive my enemy so well I'm going to damage him with my mind!"

Sense Motive is used more as a "turn opponent's strengths against him" with Setting Sun.

[Psyren]

Sense Motive is used more as a "turn opponent's strengths against him" with Setting Sun.

This - Sense Motive is already in use, unfortunately.

[Glimbur]

Make Concentration checks the Pathfinder way?
Though you now have to decide now what counts as the 'casting stat'.

This also makes multiclassing much worse, as well as dropping a feat on, say Concentrate for Reflex becoming pretty useless.

[begooler]

This - Sense Motive is already in use, unfortunately.

Didn't realize we wanted one unique skill for each sense acrobatics ended up substituting most of the skills. In which case, I agree perception/autohypnosis are right on.

I was kinda excited about the idea of someone rolling a social skill check to inflict damage.