[3.5] Martyred Champion of Ilmater

[Person_Man]

While rereading Player's Guide to Faerun, I came across a really odd PrC:

Martyred Champion of Ilmater

Requirements: Lawful Good, worship Ilmater, Endurance, Nimbus of Light, any one other Exalted Feat, Knowledge (Religion) 4 ranks, any one skill 9 ranks, and "must have died in heroic sacrifice."

Basics: d10 hit die, 3/4 BAB, strong Reflex Save, garbage Skills.
Abilities per Level:

1. Diehard, Improved Unarmed Strike.
2. Immune to Fear, +1 caster level or bonus feat.
3. Greater Endurance (another +4 to all Endurance checks).
4. Divine Grace, +1 caster level or bonus feat.
5. Holy Suffering
6. +1 caster level or bonus feat.
7. DR 10/Evil
8. +1 caster level or bonus feat.
9. Commune once per day for 10xp, Sustenance (immune to hunger, thirst, suffocation, and drowning).
10. DR 15/Evil, +1 caster level or bonus feat.

There are a bunch of oddities to this PrC.

First, it takes 2-3 mostly pointless feats to gain entry. But it offers 5 bonus feats over 10 levels with no list or restrictions other then the fact that you must otherwise qualify for them. You also get Improved Unarmed Strike and Die Hard, which is a total of 7 bonus Feats. That's a lot of options to work with.

Second, and more importantly, is the Holy Suffering ability. Whenever you take at least 50 points of damage in 1 round and survive, you gain a +1 Sacred bonus to all attack rolls, Saves, and Skill checks for every 10 points of damage taken in the previous round. This effect lasts for a number of rounds equal to your Martyred Champion level.

The wording of the Holy Suffering ability is unclear. It doesn't state whether your DR reduces your Holy Suffering bonus (which just seems like really sloppy writing - why would you give a PrC an ability that reduces the effectiveness of another ability?) And it doesn't say whether or not the bonuses stack over time, or if you just go with the highest bonus you get until the ability ends, or if you only go with the bonus based on the damage you took in the previous round. The PrC cites that this ability is very similar to the Masochism spell (Wiz 2, Cler/Blackguard/Assassin 3, Book of Vile Darkness pg 99 ) except that it's Good. The Masochism spell states that the bonuses increase each round as you take more damage, but that was a 3.0 spell, when the stacking rules were different.


Anywho, lets assume a generous DM, who allows you to calculate your Holy Suffering bonus based on total damage taken prior to DR, and that the bonuses stack. (If you take 50 damage on round 1, on round 2 you get +5. On round 2 you take an additional 50 points of damage, so on round 3 you get +10, and so on until the duration of the ability ends). What are some interesting builds that would use this PrC?

[Keld Denar]

TRUENAMER!!!!!

Lawl...you're gonna get massive bonuses to skill checks for jumping off cliffs head first and doing other dumb stuff, might as well throw those skill checks at people.

Hmmmm, maybe grappling?

[Myth]

Indomitability emulated via Miracle and Persisted via DMM can get you as much damage and hit bonuses as you have hitpoints (as it ignores the rest of the damage you take that round). It's a good combination, especially with either:

Monster that deals a lot of damage per round (SA, lots of attacks, whatever)

Ally that casts pimped-out AOE nukes (has to abuse Metamagic. But an Incantatrix can easily get a Cone of Cold to deal more damage than you have HP)

Casting things like Vengeful Gaze of God or other Epic stuff that deals a ton of backlash damage.

Just make sure to have a contingent Heal ready.

[FMArthur]

Damn... a NI skills bonus. I think you enter a realm where beyond-epic skills confer unlimited talents. Climb is flight, Jump is teleportation, Listen is scrying, etc. Could be fun. Or you can just wail on things with +stupid to attacks and defenses. You can also take advantage of Diamond Mind concentration maneuvers to instantly slay anything not immune to damage, and save against anything as well.

Sleight of Hand is landscaping! Escape Artist is interplanar travel! Disguise is PAO! Forgery is Fabricate! Craft is Genesis! Heal actually heals!

[Myth]

But how do you get it NI without you know... dying?

edit: Assuming DR/Immunities do work against this feature. If not then you can just be a team of incantatrixes who cast Energy Immunity and slap each other with thousands of damage worth of orbs.

[FMArthur]

But how do you get it NI without you know... dying?

Hold on. Are you implying that damage is a cause of death in CharOp scenarios?

[Myth]

Well not really BUT in order for Holy Suffering to work you need to take actual damage right? I gotta go read the PGTF to make sure. If it triggers off damage you COULD have taken but ignored via DR/Immunities it gets pretty stupid pretty quickly.

[Yora]

Since the idea of the class is an exalted ilmater priest who can take rediculous amounts of damage without falling, I'm pretty sure Holly Suffering only applies to damage that actually reduces hit points, not just any damage that enemies deal and then gets reduced by his resistances.
Ilmater is all about suffering for the benefit of others. Having damage bounce right off you is not something you'd associate with him.

[Keld Denar]

Omnificer uses Shared Pain in a recursive loop to deal infinite damage. Just link yourself to 2 other people, and then link those 2 people together, jump off a cliff, and viola, perpetual damage machine.

The only problem is that the Omnificer uses the bucket of water drowning trick to get his HP from -infinite to 0, an then heals from there. There really isn't another way to do that.

[Myth]

Aye, PG page 185. It's pretty obvious that RAI and RAW match here.

Holy Suffering (Su): Beginning at 5th level, whenever a martyred champion of Ilmater takes at least 50 points of damage in a single round and survives, he is surrounderd by a radiant glow signaling Ilmater's favor. He gains a sacred bonus on attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks equal to +1 for every 10 points of damage he took in the previous round. This effect lasts for a number of rounds equal to his maryred chamipon level. Although this effect is similar to that of the masochism spell, this ability is not evil.

Implying that he could die from this damage means that only potentially lethal damage is accounted for this ability.

[Sir_Chivalry]

The only problem is that the Omnificer uses the bucket of water drowning trick to get his HP from -infinite to 0, an then heals from there. There really isn't another way to do that.

Wrapping a garrotte around the neck, or just choking with hands works too.

[Fishy]

Doesn't work when you're immune to suffocation.

You'd have to jump out of the PrC at 8, I guess.

[Ernir]

I have to disagree with the assumption of a generous DM here.

Regardless of the triggering conditions (Read: I'm not talking about damage mitigation here), the bonus is typed, and has a specific duration which is counted from the time it is triggered.
The only thing that implies stacking is the tenuous link it has to the Masochism spell, which, as you mentioned, is a 3.0 spell.

My point is, I think you're going to need more than just a generous DM. You have to get him to make Holy Suffering work like the Masochism spell, which it doesn't as written.

(Which just means you have to get NI damage to yourself in one round, and you have an alternate Omnificer. A nice find. )

[Person_Man]

I have to disagree with the assumption of a generous DM here.

Regardless of the triggering conditions (Read: I'm not talking about damage mitigation here), the bonus is typed, and has a specific duration which is counted from the time it is triggered.
The only thing that implies stacking is the tenuous link it has to the Masochism spell, which, as you mentioned, is a 3.0 spell.

My point is, I think you're going to need more than just a generous DM. You have to get him to make Holy Suffering work like the Masochism spell, which it doesn't as written.

(Which just means you have to get NI damage to yourself in one round, and you have an alternate Omnificer. A nice find. )

For the purpose of theoretical optimization fun, you always assume the stupidest possible DM. But yeah, I agree with your interpretation.

Let's assume a Whatever 6/Martyred Champion 7.

Round 1: Bob attacks Champion four times. All four attacks hit, and the Champion takes a total of 80 points damage from Bob. It's reduced to 40 points of damage via DR.

Round 2: Champion gets +8 Sacred bonus to stuff (the "total damage" he took the prior round, counting damage that was negated by his DR). This bonus lasts for 7 rounds (Champion class level). Champion takes another 50 points of damage from Bob.

Round 3: Champion continues to get a +8 Sacred bonus to stuff for the next 6 rounds. He also gets a +5 Sacred bonus to stuff for the next 7 rounds, but it overlaps (does not stack) with the higher +8 Sacred bonus.

And so on.

Under this scenario, you would want to get as many separate physical attacks as possible against you, each dealing 10 or less damage (or 15 or less at ECL 16). If the DM doesn't allow the pre-DR damage total to be counted, then you pretty much need to leave the class by level 6, which sucks, since high DR perfectly fits with the PrC concept and is somewhat of a rarity in 3.X.

However, I would argue that damage that you deal to yourself should count. The text of Holy Suffering does not specify that damage must come from enemies. And back when I was in middle school (a long, long time ago) I pseudo-remember reading Forgotten Realms novels where followers of Ilmater would scourge themselves or otherwise intentionally suffer because they felt it brought them closer to their god. My reading is that the church of Ilmater is loosely based on the Dominican Flagellants, though obviously this is open to many different interpretations.

[Cieyrin]

However, I would argue that damage that you deal to yourself should count. The text of Holy Suffering does not specify that damage must come from enemies. And back when I was in middle school (a long, long time ago) I pseudo-remember reading Forgotten Realms novels where followers of Ilmater would scourge themselves or otherwise intentionally suffer because they felt it brought them closer to their god. My reading is that the church of Ilmater is loosely based on the Dominican Flagellants, though obviously this is open to many different interpretations.

I do remember that from when I read R.A. Salvatore a long time ago and Drizzt was accosted by some Ilmaterites who thought there was a finite amount of pain in the world, so they went where they could suffer the most. At the time, their thinking was a rogue drow would be an ideal way to go about it, so there's that.

[Yora]

Or maybe they felt inspired by the amount of suffering he puts on himself.

[Keld Denar]

Under this scenario, you would want to get as many separate physical attacks as possible against you, each dealing 10 or less damage (or 15 or less at ECL 16).

Nanobots? Thousands of fine-sized animated objects that poke you for 1 damage each?

[Person_Man]

Nanobots? Thousands of fine-sized animated objects that poke you for 1 damage each?

Hmmm, that's a good idea. If a DM approved it, I'd use Thrallherd. (Even has Cha synergy). Have your 100ish followers attack you with bows every round (and find a way to get immune to crits, to make sure they never go over your DR). You could call your character Sebastian.


Also, I wonder if there are any Free Actions which allow you to deal damage to yourself, regardless of DR? Can anyone think of any?

[Darrin]

The only problem is that the Omnificer uses the bucket of water drowning trick to get his HP from -infinite to 0, an then heals from there. There really isn't another way to do that.

Scarab of Stabilization (MIC p. 132) might work instead of the bucket, but it's a one-shot.

Also, I wonder if there are any Free Actions which allow you to deal damage to yourself, regardless of DR? Can anyone think of any?

Uh, Lady's Gambit, maybe? (Dragon #317).

Shocking Fist (Player's Guide to Eberron p. 151). As a free action, deal damage to yourself, any amount up to your BAB.

Overchannel (XPH), kinda. I'm not really up on psionics, isn't there a way to burn HP into PP?

[Pechvarry]

Also, I wonder if there are any Free Actions which allow you to deal damage to yourself, regardless of DR? Can anyone think of any?

Blood Magus, perhaps (both classes require prior death, too!).

As a free action, deal yourself one point of damage (ignores DR) while casting a spell. Nothing really says you can't make 50 such free actions -- though you will need to cast a spell.

[Myth]

Why are we talking physical attacks then? If you assume the absolutely stupid interpretation that any damage prior to reductions / immunities applies (it's the same thing. One is a limited immunity, the other is complete) then just have your Incanatrix buddy tag you with a 2000 damage Orb of something and be immune to that type of something (Energy Immunity or by race).

[Myth]

double post

[Person_Man]

Why are we talking physical attacks then? If you assume the absolutely stupid interpretation that any damage prior to reductions / immunities applies (it's the same thing. One is a limited immunity, the other is complete) then just have your Incanatrix buddy tag you with a 2000 damage Orb of something and be immune to that type of something (Energy Immunity or by race).

Yeah, clearly whoever wrote the PrC never thought it through. If Holy Suffering is calculated prior to DR and Energy Resistance and whatnot, then it's too easily abused. If it's calculated after DR and Energy Resistance, then giving the PrC DR 15/Evil drastically reduces the effectiveness of Holy Suffering. Either way, someone screwed up.

Maybe we should homebrew a fix. The "masochist" concept seems to pop up on a psuedo regular basis. It'd be nice to have one PrC which consolidated all of the things a masochist typically wants (lots of hit points, vampiric/retributive healing, Holy Suffering, DR, etc) into one well written class. I'll probably post one later today. Any ideas as to what should be included?

[Cieyrin]

Yeah, clearly whoever wrote the PrC never thought it through. If Holy Suffering is calculated prior to DR and Energy Resistance and whatnot, then it's too easily abused. If it's calculated after DR and Energy Resistance, then giving the PrC DR 15/Evil drastically reduces the effectiveness of Holy Suffering. Either way, someone screwed up.

Maybe we should homebrew a fix. The "masochist" concept seems to pop up on a psuedo regular basis. It'd be nice to have one PrC which consolidated all of the things a masochist typically wants (lots of hit points, vampiric/retributive healing, Holy Suffering, DR, etc) into one well written class. I'll probably post one later today. Any ideas as to what should be included?

You should probably have Mettle in there, as your suffering ends if you die.

[FMArthur]

By the way, the "massive damage" rule is going to get invoked every time you begin the process by taking over 50 damage, so you might want to get around that.

[dextercorvia]

By the way, the "massive damage" rule is going to get invoked every time you begin the process by taking over 50 damage, so you might want to get around that.

Only if you take it all from a single attack. Feeding the Blood Magus ability 50 times, for instance, wouldn't trigger that up at all.

[FMArthur]

Only if you take it all from a single attack. Feeding the Blood Magus ability 50 times, for instance, wouldn't trigger that up at all.

Oh, it's in the course of a round. My bad. I was thinking that maybe the class had been intended to gain bonuses for surviving massive damage from a single attack, which would be horrible.

[Myth]

Well you could make it immune to massive damage. Also something like Deathless Frenzy?

It also either needs to advance casting fairly well OR get some way to be immune to energy/ability drain and ability damage. And get a Mind Blank effect. I'm AFB now, how good is it caster advancement?

[ffone]

Since the bonus is typed it doesn't stack.

And it's probably based on damage after the DR is subtracted, like it would be for energy resistances or damage from other sources, since damage you resist is not 'damage you take'.

Sloppy design and writing, but doesn't seem truly ambiguous. But I agree it's still an interesting thought exercise.