REALLY Heavy Sword

[Tibbaerrohwen]

I only recently learned about the Heavy trait that can placed on weapons. Now I'm thinking of implementing it, but I want to get the most out of my Greatsword. I was thinking of adding this to a Mercurial Greatsword. My questions are:

1) Can these two properties be applied to the same weapon?

2) If so, does it require two separate Exotic Weapon Proficiency feats?

3) If they cannot overlap, what are some others ways that I can increase my Crit damage (x2 to x3 etc.)? Or overall weapon damage?

Thanks.

[Drothmal]

Usually people combine ways to enlarge the weapon (powerful build/monkey grip/strongarm bracers + enlarge/expansion) to get more damage

I think you can stack those properties, but I think it'll mostly depend on the DM and the level of optimization of your party

[Keld Denar]

A few people debate whether or not you actually need 2 EWPs (one for Mercurial Greatsword and one for Heavy) or if you just need one (for Heavy Mercurial Greatswords).

Crit damage can be increased by making the weapon out of Kaorti resin. Unfortunately, this can't be combined with heavy because Kaorti resin is organic and not a metal.

For increasing weapon damage, the best thing you can do is increase size. Actual size increases like Enlarge Person, Expansion, or Giant Size work, as do "effective" size increases like Heavy or the Greater Mighty Wallop spell. Unless you are starting with a 1d10 - 2d6 base damage weapon, however, size stacking is generally pretty inefficient. If you are starting with a base 2d6 weapon, it can get pretty rediculous pretty fast.

[Drothmal]

Along the lines of your inquiry, this is one of my favorite posts. Don't know if it applies to you, but at least it's fun

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...highlight=kill

[Tibbaerrohwen]

A few people debate whether or not you actually need 2 EWPs (one for Mercurial Greatsword and one for Heavy) or if you just need one (for Heavy Mercurial Greatswords).

Crit damage can be increased by making the weapon out of Kaorti resin. Unfortunately, this can't be combined with heavy because Kaorti resin is organic and not a metal.

For increasing weapon damage, the best thing you can do is increase size. Actual size increases like Enlarge Person, Expansion, or Giant Size work, as do "effective" size increases like Heavy or the Greater Mighty Wallop spell. Unless you are starting with a 1d10 - 2d6 base damage weapon, however, size stacking is generally pretty inefficient. If you are starting with a base 2d6 weapon, it can get pretty rediculous pretty fast.

My current thought is to take Jotunbrud and Monkey Grip a Huge-Sized Heavy Greatsword. I don't think Strongarm bracers stack with powerful build, but are there any other permanent things I can do to increase weapon size?

[Cieyrin]

A few people debate whether or not you actually need 2 EWPs (one for Mercurial Greatsword and one for Heavy) or if you just need one (for Heavy Mercurial Greatswords).

For increasing weapon damage, the best thing you can do is increase size. Actual size increases like Enlarge Person, Expansion, or Giant Size work, as do "effective" size increases like Heavy or the Greater Mighty Wallop spell. Unless you are starting with a 1d10 - 2d6 base damage weapon, however, size stacking is generally pretty inefficient. If you are starting with a base 2d6 weapon, it can get pretty ridiculous pretty fast.

May as well make it a fullblade as well, though I'm just a fan of progressing d8s over d6s.

EDIT:

My current thought is to take Jotunbrud and Monkey Grip a Huge-Sized Heavy Greatsword. I don't think Strongarm bracers stack with powerful build, but are there any other permanent things I can do to increase weapon size?

Jotunbrud != Powerful Build where larger weapons are concerned, so Monkey Grip + Strongarm Bracers for Huge Heavy Fullblade. A better method would probably be to go Half-Giant Psychic Warrior with Monkey Grip and Expansion, so your Powerfully Built and Monkey Gripping your Huge Heavy Mercurial Fullblade can then be Expanded up to Colossal when you really want to bring out the Cloud sword enviers.

[Keld Denar]

Monkey Grip doesn't stack with Jotunbrud or Strongarm Bracers or Powerful Build.

All specify that you can wield a weapon 1 size catagory bigger. They all modify the base size, so you can never wield a weapon more than one size bigger (without Titan major bloodline).

Greater Mighty Wallop isn't permanent, but it is hours/level. It only works on bludgeoning weapons, but if you got like, a Heavy Large Warmace, you'd start with 1d10 > 2d8 > 3d8, and then a CL5 GMW would give you 4d8, a CL8 GMW would give you 6d8, a CL12 GMW would give you 8d8, a CL16 GMW would give you 12d8, and a CL20 GMW would give you 16d8.

If you had access to dragon magazine material, there is the Executioner's Mace, a 2d6 base weapon, so a large one made out of gold would be 4d6 base, scaling up from there to 32d6 at CL20 with Greater Mighty Wallop.

[Cieyrin]

Monkey Grip doesn't stack with Jotunbrud or Strongarm Bracers or Powerful Build.

All specify that you can wield a weapon 1 size catagory bigger. They all modify the base size, so you can never wield a weapon more than one size bigger (without Titan major bloodline).

Greater Mighty Wallop isn't permanent, but it is hours/level. It only works on bludgeoning weapons, but if you got like, a Heavy Large Warmace, you'd start with 1d10 > 2d8 > 3d8, and then a CL5 GMW would give you 4d8, a CL8 GMW would give you 6d8, a CL12 GMW would give you 8d8, a CL16 GMW would give you 12d8, and a CL20 GMW would give you 16d8.

If you had access to dragon magazine material, there is the Executioner's Mace, a 2d6 base weapon, so a large one made out of gold would be 4d6 base, scaling up from there to 32d6 at CL20 with Greater Mighty Wallop.

I stand corrected on the Monkey Grip (terrible feat, anyways) but aren't Warmaces d12?

[Keld Denar]

If they are, even better. I seem to recall them being 1d10. I might have them mistaken with mauls though. I'm AFB atm...

[Cieyrin]

If they are, even better. I seem to recall them being 1d10. I might have them mistaken with mauls though. I'm AFB atm...

Just checked my PDF (forgot I had that book in PDF...) and it is in fact d12 with the annoying -1 to AC bit. Still, you can wield it 2-handed as a martial weapon, so no loss there.

[Person_Man]

I've researched Exotic Weapons at great length. My reading is:

1) Yes.

2) Yes.

3) The combo you're looking for is a Kaorti (Fiend Folio web enhancement), which increases the crit multiplier of any weapon to *4. Make any high threat range weapon out of this material (like a Jovar from the Planar Handbook - 2d6, 18-20, *2) with any Keen effect, optimize Power Attack, and you get massive damage.

[Tibbaerrohwen]

Monkey Grip doesn't stack with Jotunbrud or Strongarm Bracers or Powerful Build.

All specify that you can wield a weapon 1 size catagory bigger. They all modify the base size, so you can never wield a weapon more than one size bigger (without Titan major bloodline).

Greater Mighty Wallop isn't permanent, but it is hours/level. It only works on bludgeoning weapons, but if you got like, a Heavy Large Warmace, you'd start with 1d10 > 2d8 > 3d8, and then a CL5 GMW would give you 4d8, a CL8 GMW would give you 6d8, a CL12 GMW would give you 8d8, a CL16 GMW would give you 12d8, and a CL20 GMW would give you 16d8.

If you had access to dragon magazine material, there is the Executioner's Mace, a 2d6 base weapon, so a large one made out of gold would be 4d6 base, scaling up from there to 32d6 at CL20 with Greater Mighty Wallop.

As much as I hate it, I don't doubt what you're saying. Still, can anyone confirm whether this is correct or incorrect, cause if it is it just ruined my day :(

[Cieyrin]

As much as I hate it, I don't doubt what you're saying. Still, can anyone confirm whether this is correct or incorrect, cause if it is it just ruined my day :(

Which part, the not stacking bit or the Greater Mighty Wallop bit? Assuming the stacking, Jotunbrud doesn't even help anything in this, since it doesn't let you wield bigger weapons. Monkey Grip has the "1 size larger" language but was printed before both Powerful Build and the Bracers, so doesn't make any mention of them, obviously. The Bracers specifically says it doesn't stack with Powerful Build and I know they both have teh "1 size larger" language in them as well.

[JaronK]

Major Titan Bloodline is of course the primary way to get silly large weapons on smaller critters. But it has to be a warhammer.

JaronK

[No brains]

NOOB QUESTION!
Where may I find this elusive 'heavy' property, and what does it do?

[Cieyrin]

NOOB QUESTION!
Where may I find this elusive 'heavy' property, and what does it do?

Heavy is in Magic of Faerun, which is a quality of making weapons out of magically treated gold or platinum, making the weapon deal damage as if it was one size category larger and requires you to have Exotic Weapon Proficiency in that individual weapon, so EWP(Heavy Greatsword) or EWP(Heavy Spiked Chain).

[Darrin]

NOOB QUESTION!
Where may I find this elusive 'heavy' property, and what does it do?

Magic of Faerun p. 179. I think it's +7000 GP to make a weapon out of gold or platinum.

There's a table that lists how to increase the damage based on the die type. However, it was written in the 3.0 era, when the concept of "weapon sizes" and size increases wasn't exactly standardized. So there's a few quirks in the table when you compare it to the "Increasing Weapon Damage By Size" table in the Rules Compendium (p. 152).

Heavy Weapons:
1d8 -> 2d6 (Avg 4.5 -> Avg 7.0)
1d10 -> 2d6 (Avg 5.5 -> Avg 7.0)
1d12 -> 2d8 (Avg 6.5 -> Avg 9.0)
2d6 -> 2d8 (Avg 7.0 -> Avg 9.0)
2d8 -> 4d6 (Avg 9.0 -> Avg 14.0)

Rules Compendium:
1d8 -> 2d6 (Avg 4.5 -> Avg 7.0)
1d10 -> 2d8 (Avg 5.5 -> Avg 9.0)
1d12 -> 3d6 (Avg 6.5 -> Avg 10.5)
2d6 -> 3d6 (Avg 7.0 -> Avg 10.5)
2d8 -> 3d8 (Avg 9.0 -> Avg 13.5)

So the order in which you apply the Heavy property and your size increase(s) matters.

Once you get up to 3d6 or 3d8, there are two "tracks" in the Rules Compendium for how damage increases (usually with Greater Mighty Wallop):

3d6 -> 4d6 -> 6d6 -> 8d6 -> 12d6
3d8 -> 4d8 -> 6d8 -> 8d8 -> 12d8

Actually, the Rules Compendium stops the d6 progression at 6d6, but the Improved Natural Attack entry in the Monster Manual provides the rest. I'm not sure if there's any official stance on what happens if you have to go past 12dX... I think most Hulking Hurler optimizers assume that it follows a somewhat exponential pattern.

Monkey Grip starts to make sense as a viable feat when you can increase your average damage by 4 or more points (4d6 -> 6d6 or 2d8 -> 3d8), based roughly on the idea that someone else using Two-Handed Power Attack converts -2 attack penalty into +4 damage (assuming no damage multipliers like Leap Attack, Spirited Charge, Headlong Rush, etc.).

[Cieyrin]

In relation to Greater Mighty Wallop, it should be noted that you don't always necessarily have to choose your primary weapon to be bludgeoning, as there are methods to make it bludgeoning so you can GMW it later (Earth Hammer).

[Tibbaerrohwen]

Which part, the not stacking bit or the Greater Mighty Wallop bit? Assuming the stacking, Jotunbrud doesn't even help anything in this, since it doesn't let you wield bigger weapons. Monkey Grip has the "1 size larger" language but was printed before both Powerful Build and the Bracers, so doesn't make any mention of them, obviously. The Bracers specifically says it doesn't stack with Powerful Build and I know they both have teh "1 size larger" language in them as well.

My inquiry was to Powerful Build and Monkey Grip stacking. I'd really like to think they do, even though it is most probable they don't. It seems I was mistaken as to Jotunbrud; I thought it gave you the Powerful Build trait.

[Cieyrin]

My inquiry was to Powerful Build and Monkey Grip stacking. I'd really like to think they do, even though it is most probable they don't. It seems I was mistaken as to Jotunbrud; I thought it gave you the Powerful Build trait.

Nope, nope. Powerful Build didn't exist at that point, as far as I'm aware. It just gave most of the benefits EXCEPT the larger weapons. It basically makes you big-boned.

[Tibbaerrohwen]

Nope, nope. Powerful Build didn't exist at that point, as far as I'm aware. It just gave most of the benefits EXCEPT the larger weapons. It basically makes you big-boned.

Besides Titan Bloodline, how can you get the Powerful Build trait?

[Cieyrin]

Besides Titan Bloodline, how can you get the Powerful Build trait?

Titan Bloodline isn't Powerful Build, actually, but that's beside the point.

Powerful Build you get either from being one of the 4 races that has it (Goliath, Half-Giant, Eneko, Redcap) or getting the Bracers.

[Tibbaerrohwen]

Titan Bloodline isn't Powerful Build, actually, but that's beside the point.

Powerful Build you get either from being one of the 4 races that has it (Goliath, Half-Giant, Eneko, Redcap) or getting the Bracers.

Looks like I'll have to go for the bracers then, because the race is non-negotiable. Just to verify, again, the Bracers don't stack with monkey grip? :(
Is there another way to stack my size-category weapon wielding?

[JaronK]

Besides Titan Bloodline, how can you get the Powerful Build trait?

Titan Bloodline just sets it so you can wield a warhammer of a specific size, regardless of your actual size (so a Titan Bloodline Halfling with Permanent Reduce Person can wield a hammer that's easily got a handle bigger around than his own arm span).

JaronK

[Tibbaerrohwen]

Alright, thanks for the info. That too bad; I had built up delusions of dealing colossal-sized greatsword damage.

[JaronK]

Don't give up on your delusions yet, this is D&D. Why not do the Titan Bloodline thing? That lets you wield a gargantuan warhammer no matter how big you are. Feel free to make it a Heavy Gargantuan Warhammer, for 6d6 damage. Heck, with Oversized TWF, you could dual wield these... all while being the small race of your choice.

Or, use a Large Heavy Goliath Greathammer (4d6 20/X4, Exotic, +2 Sunder) via Strongarm Bracers with a casting of Greater Mighty Wallop on it to make it count as Colossal for 8d6 damage. per hit, which is about as high as you can go, and that's CL 8.

Another option is to just use a Large Heavy Fullblade (4d8 19-20/X2, Exotic) with Strongarm Bracers, which might not be quite as much as you wanted but is still pretty darn good. If you could be Large yourself (Half Minotaur Orc?) You could wield a Huge Heavy Fullblade with those bracers and have 6d8 damage in addition to crazy strength. Since Colossal Greatswords only do 8d6 damage, this is almost exactly equivalent, and it doesn't require spells.

JaronK

[Tibbaerrohwen]

Don't give up on your delusions yet, this is D&D. Why not do the Titan Bloodline thing? That lets you wield a gargantuan warhammer no matter how big you are. Feel free to make it a Heavy Gargantuan Warhammer, for 6d6 damage. Heck, with Oversized TWF, you could dual wield these... all while being the small race of your choice.

Or, use a Large Heavy Goliath Greathammer (4d6 20/X4, Exotic, +2 Sunder) via Strongarm Bracers with a casting of Greater Mighty Wallop on it to make it count as Colossal for 8d6 damage. per hit, which is about as high as you can go, and that's CL 8.

Another option is to just use a Large Heavy Fullblade (4d8 19-20/X2, Exotic) with Strongarm Bracers, which might not be quite as much as you wanted but is still pretty darn good. If you could be Large yourself (Half Minotaur Orc?) You could wield a Huge Heavy Fullblade with those bracers and have 6d8 damage in addition to crazy strength. Since Colossal Greatswords only do 8d6 damage, this is almost exactly equivalent, and it doesn't require spells.

JaronK

Thanks, that's a fantastic idea; find a template! Now why didn't I think of that. Are there any other templates that offer Powerful Build?

EDIT: On the side, where are the Mercurial Weapons form?

[JaronK]

I don't believe so, but both Half Dragon and Half Minotaur increase your size by one step. You could also consider just getting Permanent Enlarge Person. Or be a Cleric and use DMM: Persistent Righteous Might.

JaronK

[Drothmal]

I've always been a sucker for this type of build, and in my opinion, what gets it done the best is making a PsiWar: Extra feats for the weap proficiencies, ability to enlarge yourself, a lot of weapon related powers (such as psionic weapon so you can do more damage) and other goodness. But it depends if psionics is on the table or not

[herrhauptmann]

My current thought is to take Jotunbrud and Monkey Grip a Huge-Sized Heavy Greatsword. I don't think Strongarm bracers stack with powerful build, but are there any other permanent things I can do to increase weapon size?

I don't believe so, but both Half Dragon and Half Minotaur increase your size by one step. You could also consider just getting Permanent Enlarge Person. Or be a Cleric and use DMM: Persistent Righteous Might.

JaronK

Half ogre is I think significantly better than half-dragon, just because the LA is so much lower. Less of an issue if you allow LA buy-off, but not all games do.

It's been said before, and I'm going to say it again for everyone reading this for advice. Jotunbrud IS NOT Powerful Build. Jotunbrud gives you large size if it's advantageous in opposed rolls, and determining the effects of monster abilities like Swallow Whole and Improved Grab.

I'd suggest against getting a permanent Enlarge Person. It's good for a level or two, then a BBEG casts Dispel Magic, and there goes your awesomeness. And since you probably found/bought new equipment since then, your better gear is not going to fit. (I don't think you can pick up a weapon off the ground while enlarged, and have it enlarge to fit you.)
Better option would be a magic or psionic item that recasts Enlarge or Expansion for you on a daily basis.