Sherlock & Watson

[quiet1mi]

My friend is getting beck into D&D soon and I wanted to build a character to compliment his... Basically he is Sherlock Homes and I wanted to build Watson.

Sherlock Homes is a Factotum with a low Charisma yet with a combination of feats, is good at every skill....

Factotums are Tier 3 and I do not want to be completely overshadowed by him as I am his partner not his sidekick...

Tier 3 is what I am shooting for... The following classes are in Tier 3:
Examples: Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Crusader, Bard, Swordsage, Binder (without access to the summon monster vestige), Wildshape Varient Ranger, Duskblade, Factotum, Warblade, Psionic Warrior...

I cannot imagine John H. Watson, M.D being a Dread Necromancer or a Binder...

Given that he was a soldier, would Warblade be a good fit? I was considering Bard as a support character and fellow "scoundrel" but I would be unsure what his "perform" would be (Oratory in the form of stating what is known might work) to inspire competence.

[Chilingsworth]

I'd say go with either a Bard, Factorum, or a multiclass of the two.

EDIT: If you want to make him "Doctor-ish" Hvae him focus on the healing arts abit. Be it with the mundane heal skill, or chosing cure spells from the bard list, or whatever healing abilities you want to mimic with the factorum.

[Waker]

Well, a few things to remember about Watson. While he was an accomplished doctor and veteran, his main purpose in the story is to act as a chronicler of the tales and to serve as muscle for Sherlock. Warblade or Crusader could serve him well. I would avoid any caster heavy classes like Beguiler or Binder, since Watson was the man of action whereas Sherlock was the thinker.

Just make sure your friend remembers to take Weapon Proficiency (Riding Crop).

[Scarlet-Devil]

I'm going to throw in a vote for... Swordsage; they're warriors, they get heal, they get the stealth skills (and lots of skills in general, which makes it easier to keep up with Holmes), and they're not super likely to be overshadowed, certainly not by a factotum.

Edit: Remind your friend to take Improved Unarmed Strike : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdd3_qx6Eqw

[quiet1mi]

What about Sword Sage // Warblade... The only question is what schools to focus on...

Serving as the Muscle... Hmmm... What about Warblade 5 // Warforged Juggernaut 5? Is that too much muscle and not enough thinking for a detective's partner?

I like the Warblade idea, Swordsage seems too monkish for Watson... Luckily TOB is kind to multi-Classers as half of the Multi-class counts to IL... Anything we can do with that?

The levels that this character would be at would depend on the GMs mood... So either 6, 8, or 10... We can also build up to this level...

[Waker]

I would avoid making Watson into a Juggernaut. While Sherlock does outshine him in the intellect department (along with everyone else), Watson isn't stupid.

[Sillycomic]

I like the idea of Watson as a bard.

Chronicling Holme's stories, very typical of a bard. Bard has healing spells, and most of his other spells are very complimentary.

Plus with decent charisma and social skills you are able to open a lot of doors that the good Sherlock Holmes never will... and you can apologize very well for all of his "interesting" quirks.

[Elfin]

Bard seems like the best fit to me as well - perhaps a bard/warblade with Song of the White Raven?

And really, I must say, the idea of Perform (Plot Recap) is hard to resist.

[Grynning]

If you were going for a simulation of "the" Watson character, he'd really be more like an NPC expert. As a party member, I think "a" Watson character should fulfill the roles in the party that Holmes doesn't, much like Watson did in the books...he acted as a "tank," ranged dps (revolver) and out-of-combat healer. From the straight Tier 3 list, Crusader, Warblade and Bard are the best fits. Depending on the setting, see if you can get a gun or wand.

Song of the White Raven ToB multiclass would work best for the roles, the rest will be role-playing. Have middling Int, decent Cha and physical stats, low Wis (Watson was not inferior to Holmes in intellect, but in observational ability - i.e, wisdom).

[Zaq]

There's a small chunk of me that says "ranger." Watson was almost as good as Holmes at tracking people, they get access to minor healing magic if they want it, and they have Heal as a class skill. The problem is that rangers kinda blow, and Watson didn't blow.

One point to consider is that Watson was much more worldly than Holmes. Remember that if it didn't interest Holmes, he didn't know anything about it. Holmes was hyperfocused (in many, many areas, granted), while Watson had a broader knowledge base. The Bardic Knack ACF might be a decent way of representing that.

[quiet1mi]

I like the idea of Bard, now that you mention it that way... Bardic knack, and investing in gather information for urban tracking...

I do like the idea of wildshape ranger with urban tracking over normal tracking...

[true_shinken]

A Mystic Ranger with a few healing-focused feats will work superbly for Watson, with the badass veteran feel almost built-in.

[sonofzeal]

One of the problems with the Sherlock mythos, imo, is the lack of a real role for Watson. He's occasionally useful, but he seems to be more or less just a Sherlock-in-training, contributing nothing that Sherlock couldn't have done himself except the odd bit of legwork when the Great Detective is otherwise occupied.

This is one of the reasons I prefer Solar Pons. August Derleth is not nearly the literary giant of the inimitable Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, but he honestly and deeply enjoyed writing the stories where Doyle publicly hated writing them and would have stopped any time if he could have gotten away with it.

Solar Pons is very obviously a Sherlock pastiche, but his Watson-analogue, Dr. Lyndon Parker, has a much clearer role - while Pons is brilliant at observation and deduction and general detectiving, like Sherlock he lacks social skills and social graces. But Parker can actually read people fluidly and accurately. To put it another way, Pons would trounce Parker at chess, but would never be able to match him at, say, poker.

By this merit, I say the sidekick should be a social skills specialist, likely a Bard. Sense Motive, Diplomacy, Gather Information would be key - and the Sherlock character would be lacking those skills, instead focused on Knowledge, Spot, Search, etc. And since both Watson and Parker are Doctors, the spellcasting could revolve around healing and other restorative effects.

[mucat]

I'm glad the Playground remembers the Watson of the books (accomplished surgeon, war veteran, and decisive man of action) rather than the Hollywood version (goggle-eyed idiot).

Are the characters literally Holmes and Watson, or just a pair of adventurers inspired by those two archetypes? If you want to model the actual character of Watson, an Expert with a level or two of Ranger would probably be best, and for Holmes a Factotum with no spellcasting (or just prepare subtle spells which you can refluff as non-supernatural abilities.) Or switch over to d20 Modern, and give Holmes levels in Smart, Fast, and Charismatic Hero, and Watson in Dedicated, Tough, and Smart, maybe with custom-designed advanced classes.

For standard fantasy characters modeled on the Holmes/Watson archetype, I would go pure Factotum for Holmes, and Bard for Watson.


EDIT: I wouldn't give Holmes a low Charisma; he was abrasive, but it was by choice, not because he lacked social skills. Any time he wanted to charm, trick, or manipulate anyone, he pulled it off effortlessly. If he had a dump stat, it would probably be Constitution, although even that is debatable.

[Hammerhead]

Another vote for Bard for all the smarmy smarminess that being Watson involves, as well as some UMDed firepower and healing/support and all that nonsense.

Also, this thread keeps reminding me of this:

Spoiler

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[sonofzeal]

EDIT: I wouldn't give Holmes a low Charisma; he was abrasive, but it was by choice, not because he lacked social skills. Any time he wanted to charm, trick, or manipulate anyone, he pulled it off effortlessly. If he had a dump stat, it would probably be Constitution, although even that is debatable.

I didn't say a Cha dump stat. He's shown himself more than competent at a few Cha skills - Bluff and Disguise to be specific. But he's always been better with facts and logic than with people and emotions. And at least in the Jeremy Brett incarnation, I do really think he found it difficult to relate to other people in a "normal" fashion, hence his unceasing loyalty to his one true friend Watson who'd put up with his many eccentricities.

Anyway, I prefer the idea of two people whose work complements each other, rather than one flawless detective. Having Watson bring the Sense Motive, the people-reading skills that just makes sense to me.

But then I've already revealed my Solar Pons bias, so blame it on that if you must. =P

[mucat]

Also, this thread keeps reminding me of this:

Spoiler

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Ha!

Kate Beaton is, as always, awesome...and she makes my Real-Watson-vs-Hollywood-Watson point a thousand times better than I ever could. Thanks for posting that; I can't believe I had never seen that strip.

[quiet1mi]

Here my friend and I were imagining the recently released film with Tony Stark in London proving how smart he was by solving crimes, denouncing magic and all without that fancy lazar suit!

That Watson did not seem like a dunce at all... I like Bard but I also like Wildshape Urban Ranger...

The Stats for Bard throws me for a little loop because we are either doing elite array (15.14.13.12.10.08) or 32 point buy... again depends on how the GM feels... More than likely, the Elite Array will Triumph.

So the Contest is now Urban, Wildshape Ranger and Bard...

Bard: Bardic Knack, Inspire Competence (look a clue), Perform (Oratory) "the recap"... In addition UMD, Haste, and minor illusions (silent is enough), A better Support Character for making Sherlock even better...

Wildshape Urban Ranger: Urban Tracking for free, Full Bab, D8 HD, Wildshaping, Seems more like a veteran... Able to back up Sherlock incase of trouble and we get that classic Back to Back shot during a us vs. a mob of evil cultist...

I may just go for Wildshape Urban Ranger to perform the Muscle portion of the Baker Street Duo... By the way, what is a "Mystic Ranger"

[Elfin]

It's a variant from Dragon Magazine that gives the ranger a better spell progression - very often worth it, and often combined with the Sword of the Arcane Order feat so that a ranger can prepare wizard spells in his spell slots.

SotAO rangers tend to be significantly powerful at lower levels, becoming less so as levels progress.

[Amnestic]

Watson isn't stupid.

This bears repeating. Watson's not stupid, and he should challenge Holmes as well.

Try looking at the relationship between House and Wilson in...well, House. Something like that.

Also, I like the idea of a Bard.

[Waker]

Were you to have Watson be a Bard, focus more on being a combatant. As I've said before, while Watson isn't stupid, he is meant to be the muscle for the pair. Sure, Sherlock may have his riding crop and baritsu, but Watson is almost always the one with the gun (wand).

As for Sherlock tons of Knowledge skills, Search/Spot/Listen need to be high as well as Sense Motive. He is a master of disguise, even fooling Watson with his technique. Wouldn't hurt to have Investigate and Endurance. Investigate is obvious, but I mention Endurance because Sherlock would frequently push himself to the limits while on a case, gathering clues all night without sleep.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

[QUOTE=sonofzeal;10251055]...like Sherlock he lacks social skills and social graces.

Plus with decent charisma and social skills you are able to open a lot of doors that the good Sherlock Holmes never will...

He's shown himself more than competent at a few Cha skills - Bluff and Disguise to be specific. But he's always been better with facts and logic than with people and emotions. And at least in the Jeremy Brett incarnation, I do really think he found it difficult to relate to other people in a "normal" fashion, hence his unceasing loyalty to his one true friend Watson who'd put up with his many eccentricities.

As a major Holmes aficionado, I have to argue these points. If anything, Charisma is Holmes' second or third highest statistic. Sure, he doesn't normally act that charismatic, but he's more than able to turn on the charm.

Over the course of the series, he intimidates several tough opponents, disguises himself flawless on numerous occasions, bluffs his way out of many situations, and even goes so far as to, within the space of a couple of days, get a servant at a suspect's house to believe that he is in love with her to the point where she accepts his fictional marriage proposal, used as a ploy to get information. That takes an incredibly hefty amount of charisma.

Further, Charisma also represents a force of personality and a "physic presence," if you will. Holmes is often noted as having both in spades. He might not be the most gentile or likeable person most of the time, but he is able to be both, and he has an incredibly dominant and obvious presence. That means he has a damn high charisma.

But, again, he's good at most things. I'd say the following might not be to far off the mark in the D&D system:

Strength: 13 -- He's strong enough to harpoon a pig carcass, although not quite all the way through, and also strong enough to wrestle down several quite beefy criminals. Assuming they aren't in peak condition (putting them at 14-15), this seems applicable.
Dexterity: 16 -- Sherlock has quite a lot of motor control, as evidenced by his occasional lock-picking, and his speed and general agility are both quite high. He leaps over hedges, rushes to intercept criminals, and is just generally fast and full of energy.
Constitution: 11 -- Sherlock isn't really anything special endurance-wise, although he is on the higher end of the human average when it comes to dealing with physical expenditure.
Intelligence: 18 -- Obviously.
Wisdom: 17 -- Sherlock is incredibly perceptive and very good at picking up cues, although he occasionally overlooks one or two emotional cues. Not quite as high as his Intelligence score, this one is nevertheless quite close.
Charisma: 17-18 -- For the reasons outlined above.

[SmartAlec]

I'd tend to think of Holmes as mediocre charisma, but with such an impressive Intelligence that he has skill points to spare for reasonable scores in things like Bluff, Intimidate and so on. That seemed to fit the idea of someone who doesn't appear that charismatic but knows how to turn on the charm, as you put it. His feats of empathy, intimidation, deception etc seem more based on a combination of his observational/deductive skills and honed acting ability, rather than any innate charisma.

[Greenish]

Also, this thread keeps reminding me of this:

Spoiler

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Damn, you beat me to it.

[Edit]: The saga continues…

[Paseo H]

Also, Sherlock himself was no slouch in battle. Maybe the recent movie overplayed it a little but as far as I know, he really was a pit fighter.

[Sillycomic]

Yeah, I would give you that Holmes would have a decent bluff, mostly because he has found through his inteligence lying and manipulating usually gathers better results than the truth...

However, that does not prove tha the has a decent Charisma. That just proves it's not a dump stat.

[Analytica]

Somehow, I would be inclined to go cleric for Watson. Soldier and surgeon seems very lawful activities in context, and cleric might have the same feel of being connected to and beholden to the surrounding society, and provides the same title that commoners are likely to trust and respect. Combined with good wisdom and charisma, both serve to ground the unruly genius Sherlock. The added advantage is that cleric in D&D can become as powerful as you feel like, just depending on which spells you want that day. I can see both ranger, swordsage and bard working out as well, though.

[The Glyphstone]

Strength: 13 -- He's strong enough to harpoon a pig carcass, although not quite all the way through, and also strong enough to wrestle down several quite beefy criminals. Assuming they aren't in peak condition (putting them at 14-15), this seems applicable.
Dexterity: 16 -- Sherlock has quite a lot of motor control, as evidenced by his occasional lock-picking, and his speed and general agility are both quite high. He leaps over hedges, rushes to intercept criminals, and is just generally fast and full of energy.
Constitution: 11 -- Sherlock isn't really anything special endurance-wise, although he is on the higher end of the human average when it comes to dealing with physical expenditure.
Intelligence: 18 -- Obviously.
Wisdom: 17 -- Sherlock is incredibly perceptive and very good at picking up cues, although he occasionally overlooks one or two emotional cues. Not quite as high as his Intelligence score, this one is nevertheless quite close.
Charisma: 17-18 -- For the reasons outlined above.

this is the only one I'd disagree with, unless we discount The Adventure of the Speckled Band. After Dr. Roylott bends an iron bar in half to intimidate Holmes, Holmes just takes the bar afterwards and bends it back into shape. Bending Iron Bars is a DC24 Strength check, so Holmes would need to be at least STR18 to Take 20. And he counter-bent the rod without straining effort, which would imply taking 10, but that's not reasonable...so do we count that as an anomaly?

[sonofzeal]

this is the only one I'd disagree with, unless we discount The Adventure of the Speckled Band. After Dr. Roylott bends an iron bar in half to intimidate Holmes, Holmes just takes the bar afterwards and bends it back into shape. Bending Iron Bars is a DC24 Strength check, so Holmes would need to be at least STR18 to Take 20. And he counter-bent the rod without straining effort, which would imply taking 10, but that's not reasonable...so do we count that as an anomaly?

We don't know how thick the bar was, and it may have been a particularly weak specimen. Not all iron bars are created equal.

[Greenish]

this is the only one I'd disagree with, unless we discount The Adventure of the Speckled Band. After Dr. Roylott bends an iron bar in half to intimidate Holmes, Holmes just takes the bar afterwards and bends it back into shape. Bending Iron Bars is a DC24 Strength check, so Holmes would need to be at least STR18 to Take 20. And he counter-bent the rod without straining effort, which would imply taking 10, but that's not reasonable...so do we count that as an anomaly?

Did you forget that he's a factotum? Int to strength checks!