Amazing 3.5 Melee Fix

[Aemoh87]

So I am building a campaign at the moment and I was wondering what I could possibly do to fix the melee caster divide. Well there is no real solution (cept druid but just because it's good at both doesn't make it a fix) but I did come up with something that helps. I gave every class except the full casting ones martial manuevers! Even bard, even though his is scaled back to the normal 1 initiator level per 2 character levels. And the only people who don't have this are Wizard, Sorc, Cleric, Artificer, and Druid. I also house rule no maneuvers while wild shaped to hose variant rangers a bit. I think it will pan out great, plus it makes fighter (who has access to all but devoted spirit) a fun class again! Everyone Rejoice!

[Lockjaw]

I had thought about the same thing recently (got the ToB for Christmas). Let me know how it works.

[Hammerhead]

Are you using homebrewed maneuvers or is every character going to be drawing from the same pool? If every character is drawing 2-3 maneuvers/level from the same handful of schools, I envision a lot more characters looking very very similar to each other.

This sounds like a bit of a pain in terms of paperwork, to be honest. If I'm playing a Favored Soul, Incarnate or Bard, I've already got one or more pools of abilities to track. IMO, it'd be better to improve classes along lines of mechanical systems that have already been established: for instance, improving the Paladin, Spellthief, Hexblade, Ranger and whatever other half-casters I'm forgetting with improved casting [as with the Mystic Ranger] could push them toward the ToB-Bard-Totemist power strata without adding as much extraneous paperwork and without creating as much redundancy between player abilities.

For classes without involved casting/essentia/psionics mechanisms already involved like the Samurai, Fighter, Knight, Dragon Shaman, Marshal or their ilk, it sounds like a good idea, but I'd still recommend expanding maneuver options a bit.

[FMArthur]

Maneuvers will add more to the core melee classes than their own class abilities. Really you're just adding stuff onto the Martial Adepts, which don't really need any buffs. Just let them replace the old classes.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

My suggestion:

* Replace Fighter with Warblade
* Replace Monk with Unarmed Swordsage
* Replace Paladin with Crusader
* Remove Ranger casting, replace with gimped maneuver/stance progression
* Give Barbarian gimped maneuver/stance progression

* Replace Wiz/Sorc with one of:
- Beguiler
- Dread Necromancer
- Warmage
- Warlock
- Dragonfire Adept

* Replace Druid with PhB II Variant

* Replace Cleric with one of:
- Favored Soul
- Healer

Done.

[MeeposFire]

Giving other classes maneuvers will help them get to a respectable level (though that does hurt the ToB classes a bit) but it still will not make them as powerful as full casters. Nothing you do (most likely) will change that unless you nerf the casters which tends to be unpopular in 3.5. All you do is change the balance between classes and the creatures they fight.

[Aemoh87]

Every character is drawing from the styles printed. And each only has access to a few styles. Such as fighter has access to all but devoted spirit. Paladin has the same as crusader. Rogue has shadow and tiger claw. ect ect. I don't have the actual list I am using in front of my face but most have access to 3 styles except for fighter.

As for nerfing casters, I agree it's an aweful idea. But aren't casters supposed to be stronger? I have always believed that, so it is a necessary evil. The party wizard is scary, but so are the DM's wizards :) sounds like balance to me.
(I used wizard in that reference not druid because I think druids are boring)

[faceroll]

There are some spells that either shouldn't be, or should be higher level, IMO. The biggest way to limit casters' power is to limit the spells they have available. The next is to curtail metamagic mitigation.

[Aemoh87]

Well the idea isn't to limit casters it's to enhance the classes that need a boost so they are more playable. If some one wants to play a monk they are gonna do it no matter how much better swordsage is, so why not fix monk?

[Kobold-Bard]

This system helps with the power gap but don't you think it's a little boring? Everyone either casts spell or uses maneuvers?

[AslanCross]

My suggestion:

* Replace Fighter with Warblade
* Replace Monk with Unarmed Swordsage
* Replace Paladin with Crusader
* Remove Ranger casting, replace with gimped maneuver/stance progression
* Give Barbarian gimped maneuver/stance progression

Honestly, I find this unnecessary. ToB multiclasses better than any optional ruleset. It stacks great with the core classes (okay, Paladin not so much).

[Aemoh87]

Well they have that option but people still wind up picking certain classes for reasons other because one is better than the other, if you use that as a point then ToB is pointless and every book should be titled "Another Look at Druid: This time with more pictures"

[Aemoh87]

Plus have you ever played a high level fighter? Attacking is boring, but ToB makes every classes much more interesting.

[AslanCross]

You might want to edit your posts instead of double-posting.

[faceroll]

Well the idea isn't to limit casters it's to enhance the classes that need a boost so they are more playable. If some one wants to play a monk they are gonna do it no matter how much better swordsage is, so why not fix monk?

Because things like celerity, shapechange, entangle, solid fog, grease, and shivering touch shouldn't be in the game.

edit
Neither should planar binding spells, planar ally spells, gate, astral projection, rope trick, freedom of movement effects, or mindblank.

[Aemoh87]

Some spells do need to be banned. That is just the nature of any game, mistakes are made. Venomfire should be on that list as well. I also usually ban 9th level scrolls period. But this isn't a issue of broken or not, it's to enhance the classes that are in the lower tiers and to make them more fun.

[Kobold-Bard]

Some spells do need to be banned. That is just the nature of any game, mistakes are made. Venomfire should be on that list as well. I also usually ban 9th level scrolls period. But this isn't a issue of broken or not, it's to enhance the classes that are in the lower tiers and to make them more fun.

Ban "Tier 1".

There are "Tier 3" replacements for all of those classes, so just use them instead.

[Aemoh87]

I am not a fan of banning tier 1, most players understand that playing an optimized tier 1 character isn't gonna pan out well for the party. And my group is mature enough to stick with it. Infact in 4 years together we have only had one fully optimized character pulled of the net that was played, and it was such a bad experience that the party never did it again.

[icefractal]

Because things like celerity, shapechange, entangle, solid fog, grease, and shivering touch shouldn't be in the game.

Ok, some of those are obvious, but Grease? Really? I think if your game balance breaks down from Grease or Entangle, or even Solid Fog, then it's too fragile a balance. "No tricks, blasting only, final destination" is not a good direction for D&D, IMO.

Neither should planar binding spells, planar ally spells, gate, astral projection, rope trick, freedom of movement effects, or mindblank.

And again, you're throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Planar Binding is a 'ing classic fantasy element. Fix loopholes like infinite wishes? Definitely. Throw out anything that isn't trivial to balance? No thanks.

[Eldan]

Grease is among the most powerful spells, actually.

Why? Because it requires balance checks. How many creatures have ranks in balance? Exactly.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Grease is among the most powerful spells, actually.

Why? Because it requires balance checks. How many creatures have ranks in balance? Exactly.

DC 10. If opponent has ANY kind of positive dex mod, odds are he's not going to be affected. Also, any quadraped, or anything else with Stability, isn't going to be falling over any time soon either.

[JaronK]

DC 10. If opponent has ANY kind of positive dex mod, odds are he's not going to be affected. Also, any quadraped, or anything else with Stability, isn't going to be falling over any time soon either.

You're missing the point. If you have less than 5 ranks in balance and you make a balance check, you're instantly flat footed, no save. Falling over isn't the issue, it's the instant flat foot thing. Very nice for sneak attackers/iaijutsu focus types, and denied dex is fun for all. Screws up their AoOs too.

VERY few monsters have the needed 5 ranks.

JaronK

[Aemoh87]

Grease is good, BUT here is my biggest argument for keeping it.

A wizard can't cast grease and sneak attack the monster on the same turn... that means the party will have to use team work. That means at least 2 people are involved prolly more. That means happy players.

[CuriousOne]

So the text of Grease says you only make the Balance check if you move. That makes standing there and attacking an option, because only if you *move* are you flat footed.

[Barbarian MD]

I highly recommend one of the following:

Gestalt melee characters. (Allows for templates and monstrous races, or synergistic classes and dips)

Races of War (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Races_o...ors_with_Class) (Because more people need to see the awesomeness of this source book. Some of the most powerful features escape a quick once-over. Immediate action 5 for steps for the fighter allow you to negate a hit. Immediate action, no-save interrupting abilities within 60 feet. The Samurai can deflect, reflect, and extinguish magic. The barbarian eventually gets his own anti-magic field.)

Penny Dreadful (Doc Roc and company) have a number of classes that are almost as powerful as Races of War, but perhaps more palatable to DMs--monk, barbarian, warmarked.)

Races of War style feats that scale with BAB (see either my sig or the link above)

[true_shinken]

If you really think this is a problem, you should be playing 4e. It's the best 'fix' for this there is.

[Person_Man]

And the only people who don't have this are Wizard, Sorc, Cleric, Artificer, and Druid.

What about the Archivist, Psion, Erudite, Favored Soul, Binder, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Duskblade, Factotum, Psychic Warrior, Wu Jen, Spirit Shaman, etc? Do they get extra power even though they're Tier 1-3?

Also, lets assume that you're only giving low tier classes Tome of Battle maneuvers? Depending on how you do it, you may make them more powerful then the fairly balanced Tome of Battle classes themselves. For example, the lowly Fighter gets 12 bonus feats (11 from levels, plus Tower or exotic shield proficiency at first level), plus a decent assortment of alternate class abilities and substitution levels. By comparison, the Warblade gets a total of 5 bonus feats (including the limited Weapon Focus) from a VERY limited list, Uncanny + Imp Uncanny Dodge (essentially 1 weak-ish Feat each), Int to various checks, and a very useful Capstone. A Fighter with Warblade maneuvers is thus more powerful then a Warblade, especially at early levels.

Anywho, I loves me some Tome of Battle. But the balance issues in 3.5 can't be fixed by just slapping it on to everything. Balance in 3.5 can only accomplished by having your party agree to a certain optimization level, and then creating their characters and choosing their spells/feats/etc as a group.

[Greenish]

You're missing the point. If you have less than 5 ranks in balance and you make a balance check, you're instantly flat footed, no save. Falling over isn't the issue, it's the instant flat foot thing. Very nice for sneak attackers/iaijutsu focus types, and denied dex is fun for all. Screws up their AoOs too.

Not just their AoO, you also can't use Immediate Actions if you're flat-footed.

[CycloneJoker]

The barbarian eventually gets his own anti-magic field.

Just a nitpick, but Shining South says barbarians get more magic than just AMF. It puts them nicely in low tier 2 or high tier 3.

[Barbarian MD]

Just a nitpick, but Shining South says barbarians get more magic than just AMF. It puts them nicely in low tier 2 or high tier 3.

Never used Shining South. The RoW Barbarian gets an antimagic field while raging that doesn't affect himself or his equipment, and he is ALWAYS raging.

And the RoW Samurai ignores all DR/Hardness/AC due to armor and natural armor, and can pick up ignoring deflection bonuses.

Races of War does a fantastic job of creating, not Tier 1, but Tier 1.25 classes.