TWF question

[Andry]

2 weapon fighting with a greatsword and armor razors is this kosher?

[Greenish]

Yes, if your DM will let you.

[Keld Denar]

RAW its legal. Power-wise, its balanced. Like EVERYTHING else, its subject to DM approval. Shouldn't be a problem though.

Remember, the benefit of using a 2hander is that you get 2:1 PA. Since Armor Spikes are a light weapon, they can never benefit from PA, so they take the penalty to hit, but don't give anything back.

[Andry]

Thanks for the quick answers

[The J Pizzel]

2 weapon fighting with a greatsword and armor razors is this kosher?

Not sure. I'm not Jewish...

/ba doom ching

That's right folks, I'll be here all week.

Nah really though. It's legal. Just check with the boss man. And I agree with Keld, it doesn't really have a good payoff, but I bet it looks cool as hell.

[dextercorvia]

It works a little better with a reach weapon. That way you can threaten the adjacent area as well as at reach.

[Keld Denar]

Ah, but then you aren't really TWFing, are you? There is a difference between Two Weapon Fighting and fighting with two weapons.

[dextercorvia]

You still could be TWF'ing if you had opponents both 5' and 10' away, but that is more situational.

[notagain111]

Perhaps you could argue to take your 5' step during your full attack, letting you smack the fellow with your reach weapon and your spikes?

[MeeposFire]

Perhaps you could argue to take your 5' step during your full attack, letting you smack the fellow with your reach weapon and your spikes?

Actually I believe you can. You do not have to decide to use a full attack or standard action attack until you use actions that make it impossible.

[KillianHawkeye]

Perhaps you could argue to take your 5' step during your full attack, letting you smack the fellow with your reach weapon and your spikes?

You can already take a 5' step in between attack during a Full Attack. You always could.

[Jayabalard]

You can already take a 5' step in between attack during a Full Attack. You always could.

hmm... you have to take your attacks in order, from highest bonus to lowest. So it looks like you're likely to lose iterative attacks if you try to step between attacks.

[Person_Man]

Yes, it works. It's even covered in the FAQ. However, Armor Spikes are light weapons, and thus you cannot apply Power Attack to them. So it's not really worth spending a Feat on TWF to get a bonus 1d6 + (Str bonus * 0.5) damage (when you hit, which is less likely with TWF), nor is it worth the added expense of enchanting a second magic weapon.

[Whammydill]

*Ponders watching someone swinging a weapon with two hands 4 times and in there somewhere goring someone with armor razors 4 times, all in 6 seconds*

Yep, sounds legit to me.

[KillianHawkeye]

hmm... you have to take your attacks in order, from highest bonus to lowest. So it looks like you're likely to lose iterative attacks if you try to step between attacks.

What do you mean "likely to lose iterative attacks if you try to step between attacks"? Taking your attacks in order has nothing to do with your ability to 5' step between them.

[dextercorvia]

Suppose you have +6/+6/+1/+1.

You take the first +6 at reach, and then step in to make your second +6 with Armor Razors. You can then take your +1 with the Razor's, but can't step back out to take your +1 with the reach weapon.

Edit: Assuming ITWF.

[Greenish]

*Ponders watching someone swinging a weapon with two hands 4 times and in there somewhere goring someone with armor razors 4 times, all in 6 seconds*

Only goring with razors three times, pre-epic.

[KillianHawkeye]

Suppose you have +6/+6/+1/+1.

You take the first +6 at reach, and then step in to make your second +6 with Armor Razors. You can then take your +1 with the Razor's, but can't step back out to take your +1 with the reach weapon.

Edit: Assuming ITWF.

Oh right. I forgot the thread was about using a reach weapon with spiked armor.

[Saint GoH]

2 weapon fighting with a greatsword and armor razors is this kosher?

@KillianHawkeye

Since when did greatswords become Reach weapons?

[Keld Denar]

@KillianHawkeye

Since when did greatswords become Reach weapons?

He was referencing this quote by dextercorvia:

It works a little better with a reach weapon. That way you can threaten the adjacent area as well as at reach.

[KillianHawkeye]

Okay, I don't know what's going on. I should stop posting when I'm only half awake.

My point was that you can take a 5'-step between attacks, and you always could. Whether or not that's a good idea depends on what kind of weapons you are using I guess, but that's something I'll leave up to individual interpretation.

[ffone]

Related question:

could you TWF with a longbow as your 'main hand attacks' and then thrown weapons for the 'off hand attacks' (assuming it's a free action to throw - so shuriken, Quick Draw, or masterwork thrown weapons with augment crystals of return)?

Or, say, a longbow as the main hand attacks and unarmed strikes or gnomish quickrazors for the off-hand attacks? (Recognizing that you'll want to 5' in between so you don't provoke AoOs from the ranged attacks, or use a spell or other ability to make ranged attacks w/o provoking AoOs).

[umbrapolaris]

Related question:

could you TWF with a longbow as your 'main hand attacks' and then thrown weapons for the 'off hand attacks' (assuming it's a free action to throw - so shuriken, Quick Draw, or masterwork thrown weapons with augment crystals of return)?

Or, say, a longbow as the main hand attacks and unarmed strikes or gnomish quickrazors for the off-hand attacks? (Recognizing that you'll want to 5' in between so you don't provoke AoOs from the ranged attacks, or use a spell or other ability to make ranged attacks w/o provoking AoOs).

unless you pull the string with your mouth, you still need 2 hands for a bow. no?

[Fishy]

How about Natural Weapons? If I've got a bite attack and a greatsword, can I TWF with them? Or Wolf Fang Strike?

[Fitz10019]

Actually I believe you can. You do not have to decide to use a full attack or standard action attack until you use actions that make it impossible.

True, generally, but in this case, you have to decide/declare whether you're 2WF before the first die roll, because that affects whether your 2WF penalty applies to the roll.

[true_shinken]

How about Natural Weapons? If I've got a bite attack and a greatsword, can I TWF with them? Or Wolf Fang Strike?

TWF doesn't work for natural weapon, but you can still use TWF and make secondary natural weapon attacks by default.

[Darrin]

Related question:
could you TWF with a longbow as your 'main hand attacks' and then thrown weapons for the 'off hand attacks' (assuming it's a free action to throw - so shuriken, Quick Draw, or masterwork thrown weapons with augment crystals of return)?

This is possible via RAW, but check with your DM for his specific interpretation. The TWF feat and the TWF rules in the combat section never specify that TWF must use melee weapons. You can switch between ranged and melee attacks with each of your iterative attacks, and likewise there's no specific rule against this for your off-hand attacks.

Except for cloud of knives, there's no "free action to throw". I assume you mean "free action to draw". But yes, if you have a hand free and can draw a thrown weapon as a free action, this lets you make a ranged attack whenever you would be able to make a melee attack (except for AoOs, which are melee-only). Free actions that you can do in between attacks:

* Drawing ammunition (arrow, bolt, shuriken)
* Taking one hand off of a two-handed weapon (this isn't explictly RAW, but using a bow would be otherwise impossible), or re-gripping a two-handed weapon with both hands
* Draw a weapon with Quickdraw/Crystal of Return
* Draw a spell component from a pouch
* Drop a weapon
* Take 5' step (technically, this is a "no action", but essentially the same as a free action)

So, yes, while using a longbow, you could take one hand off as a free action to quickdraw/throw a shuriken or dagger. If you use your bow for all your iterative attacks, you could use TWF to throw a ranged weapon as an off-hand attack.

Note: You can also use Rapid Shot for the same effect. You can even use Rapid Shot while making melee attacks with all your iterative attacks. You could, for example, attack with your greatsword, and then take a hand off to quickdraw/throw a dagger, and use either Rapid Shot or TWF to make an extra attack. If you had both Rapid Shot and TWF, you could make two extra attacks: one with Rapid Shot, and one off-hand attack, but all your attacks that round would incur at least -4 penalty.

Or, say, a longbow as the main hand attacks and unarmed strikes or gnomish quickrazors for the off-hand attacks? (Recognizing that you'll want to 5' in between so you don't provoke AoOs from the ranged attacks, or use a spell or other ability to make ranged attacks w/o provoking AoOs).

Yes, you can take a hand off your bow as a free action to make unarmed strikes, either as a primary attack or as an off-hand attack. The gnome qiuckrazor would also work.

How about Natural Weapons? If I've got a bite attack and a greatsword, can I TWF with them? Or Wolf Fang Strike?

true_shinken I think already got this one but in the interests of superfluous pedantry:

Natural weapons can only attack once per round, and they can't be used for off-hand attacks. If you're using your bite as your primary attack, I think by RAW you *can* make an offhand attack with a manufactured weapon (including a greatsword, but it's not light so at least a -4 penalty) per the TWF rules. But your bite attack is still subject to the rules for natural weapons: only one attack, unless there's something specific in your stat block or an ability/effect that says otherwise.

Wolf Fang Strike works a little differently. To use it, you must fight with two weapons (or one weapon + unarmed strike), but the maneuver does not specify whether the weapons have to be manufactured, natural, light, etc. If you have at least two natural weapons, then technically you can use the maneuver. You're not making more than one attack with your natural weapons, so you're not actually breaking any of the natural weapon rules. You can also use non-light or two-handed weapons with this maneuver, and the -2 penalty supercedes the normal TWF penalties. From the maneuver description, it's not clear how much of your Strength bonus you get on the second attack. Other than the option to use an unarmed strike, the second attack isn't explicitly identified as an "off-hand" (1/2 Str bonus).

[Greenish]

Natural weapons can only attack once per round,

Huh? I know they specify you can't use iterative attacks, but what about AoO and other miscellaneous stuff?

and they can't be used for off-hand attacks. If you're using your bite as your primary attack, I think by RAW you *can* make an offhand attack with a manufactured weapon (including a greatsword, but it's not light so at least a -4 penalty) per the TWF rules.

I also thought that natural weapons used with manufactured weapons are always secondary.

From the maneuver description, it's not clear how much of your Strength bonus you get on the second attack. Other than the option to use an unarmed strike, the second attack isn't explicitly identified as an "off-hand" (1/2 Str bonus).

Never noticed that, but yeah, it seems that both attacks from WFS should get full benefits from Str. Excellent…

[Keld Denar]

Yea, Greenish has it right (per usual). If you use a manufactured weapon, or actually, if you use any weapon that can claim iterative attacks (UASs are natural weapons, but can make iteratives, so they are kinda bothish), then all natural attacks are shunted to secondary. If your primary weapon is a bite, then your bite becomes secondary. If your primary weapon is a pair of claws, they both becomes secondary. If your primary weapon is a set of 8 tentacles, all 8 become secondary.

If you divided all weapons into two groups, you'd have manufactured weapons (+UASs) and natural weapons. If you further subdivided them, you'd divide manufactured weapons into main hand and offhand, and you'd divide natural weapons into primary and secondary natural weapons. While similar, in mechanics, main hand is not equal to primary, and offhand is not the same as secondary. There are some similarities, such as how much +str bonus you most often get, but they really are different.

Natural/Manufactured weapons overview.

Spoiler

Show

Main hand weapons are weapons you get your iterative attacks with. This is NOT required to be a single weapon. You could make main hand attacks with 3 different weapons, so long as you have enough BAB to make 3 attacks. Main hand attacks typically get 1x +str, unless you wield them in both hands. Note: You don't actually have to wield a weapon in any hands, provided its description allows it.

Offhand weapons are weapons who's attacks are derived from the TWFing combat option, or through the higher tier TWFing feats. You don't need TWFing to TWF, but it helps reduce the penalties. You DO need ITWF and GTWF to make more than one offhand attack. All offhand attacks have to be with the same weapon, and it can't be with any weapon you used as part of your iterative attacks. Offhand attacks only ever recieve .5x +str damage, regardless of how many hands you wield them with. If you aren't TWFing, you don't have an offhand.

Primary natural attacks are a creature's main mode of attack. This is typically an attack with either the highest damage, or a combat ability such as Improved Grab. Its also typically the attack a creature makes AoOs and standard action attacks with. Primary natural attacks almost always get 1x Str, although some creatures, especially those with only a single natural weapon, may get 1.5x. There is no hard rule for this though, so consult a stat block for more details. In the presence of a weapon capable of making iteratives (manufactured weapon or UAS), all primary weapons are converted to secondary natural weapons. A natural attack that is full (such as carrying gear or a manufactured weapon) can not make attacks.

Secondary natural attacks are a creature's alternate modes of attack. During a full attack, each other natural weapon the creature posesses may make 1 attack at -5 from highest AB (-2 with Multiattack). Secondary natural weapons always only receive .5x +str regardless of whether or not they delt 1x or 1.5x as primary weapons. A natural attack that is full (such as carrying gear or a manufactured weapon) can not make attacks.

[Darrin]

Huh? I know they specify you can't use iterative attacks, but what about AoO and other miscellaneous stuff?

I pored through the rules looking for something that says "yes you can make AoOs with natural weapons", since that seems to violate the "once per turn" rule, but I couldn't find anything. The best I can find is this in the MM/SRD:

"A creature making a melee attack with a natural weapon is considered armed and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Likewise, it threatens any space it can reach."

Since natural weapons threaten, they can make AoOs. I wish this were explicitly spelled out in the combat section, but it isn't. Actually, the AoO rules do explain that you can make an AoO even if you've already attacked that round. So AoOs are an exception to the "can't make multiple attacks" rule, either for the "can't make multiple attacks unless you use full attack" rule or the "natural weapons can only attack once per round" rule.

I also thought that natural weapons used with manufactured weapons are always secondary.

It's implied, but you may be putting an absolute "always" in there that wasn't necessarily there to begin with. From the SRD:

"Some creatures combine attacks with natural and manufactured weapons when they make a full attack. When they do so, the manufactured weapon attack is considered the primary attack unless the creature’s description indicates otherwise and any natural weapons the creature also uses are considered secondary natural attacks."

So it is possible that a stat block may specify that a manufactured weapon is not the primary, but it's not clear if a creature can choose to keep it's usual primary natural weapon and treat the manufactured weapon as an off-hand attack. Since most monsters don't have the TWF feat, I don't think it's ever come up in a stat block that way... but I don't see any rule that says a creature can't keep it's "bite" as its primary attack and use TWF to attack with a sword in his off-hand. So long as the rules for natural weapons are being followed (they don't get iterative attacks), there's nothing in the TWF rules that says your primary weapon has to be manufactured.

Never noticed that, but yeah, it seems that both attacks from WFS should get full benefits from Str. Excellent…

The comment about using an unarmed strike as your second weapon = off-hand attack bothers me, though... it sounds like all second weapons, not just unarmed strikes, would be treated as off-hand attacks. I'm not sure arguing about it would make much of a difference, though... monks and Bloodclaw Masters already get full Strength damage on their off-hand attacks, why not a maneuver?