warlok and darkness

[broli]

im dming a campaing, where one of my players is using a combo i think is totaly broken.

My policy is to allow my players to play what they want, an my job is to work harder to keep things fun for everyone

The mentioned player uses a warlok, with the invocations that work like "ebon eyes", "darkvision" and "darkness spell"

You can see how unbalancing is this. Last session he simple obscured the battlefield, and sneaked past an army of undead, and completed a quest i was hoping it would last 3 sessions, in about 10 mins real life.

All my inteligent pnj carry ebon eyes potion (since is so powerfull and so cheap), but i cant use any monster i know off, because there is no way to overcome this thing without metagaming of my part (im talking about monters, animals and the like)

Any tip?

the enemies of the party made they homework and they are always prepared, but i want to be able to use things like mounstrous spiders in random encounters :p

Thanks and sorry for the bad english

[Diarmuid]

Reread how Darkness works in 3.5.

Darkness merely creates Shadowy Illumination, which does not obscure vision.

He might have ridiculous ranks in Hide, but if he didnt have to open any doors or open any chests/interact with anything then anyone with a lot of Hide or invisibility could have done the exact same thing.

[Hammerhead]

Darkness isn't a big wall of black.

It's more like when you're on a busy well-lit street at night and one of the street lamps goes out. It's dimmer; you can't see as well as you would with the lights on; but you can still totally see that creepy Faustian dude who's trying to sneak past you to nab your macguffin.

[broli]

i never considered this

im from argentina, and i read the manual in spanish.

reading the darkness spell in english, its true it kinda hints at the fact that is not a huge squared box of total black

is this behaviour better explained in other parts of the PHB? (or other sources like the DMG)

this might be really interesting

[LansXero]

Check the SRD entry for concealment; it should also be in your PHB, but I dont have the page number at hand.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Allow me to clarify what happens with respect to Darkness, and how this impacts game play from a mechanics and rules point of view:

* Darkness is cast on a point in space, or an object, that radiates shadowy illumination with a 20' radius.

-First off, Shadowy Illumination means that all individuals in the area have Concealment. This means that anyone attacking into or out of the area now have a 20% miss chance on any attack roll they make. Therefore, it is completely ineffective against attacks that do not have attack rolls, such as Area Effect spells (like Fireball).

-Second off, you still draw Line of Sight through this area,so that it does NOT block Line of Sight, and that the 20% miss chance is the only penalty for attacking into, out of, or through this area.

-Third off, an opponent with Concealment is immune to Sneak Attacks or other Precision-based damage (sudden strike and skirmish being the other two major sources). So by doing so, he keeps any rogues from being able to apply their sneak attacks.

-Fourth off, that's a 20' radius. If you are playing on a grid-map, that equates to 4 squares *in each direction*. That's a fairly sizable area.

-Fifth off, while HE may have the 'Devil's Sight' invocation which lets him ignore magical darkness, the rest of the party DOES NOT. Which means THEY have the same aiming problems that the opponents do.

Furthermore, there are MANY types of opponents which are fully effective in darkness.

Most spiders and other vermin have some sort of Tremorsense or Blindsense or Blindsight, which is fully functional within an area of magical darkness

Many types of Undead, including practically ALL forms of Incorporeal undead have something called Lifesight or Lifesense which also ignores any darkness or material objects.

[Chuckthedwarf]

Yeah, pretty much what the above few posters said.

Just wait till he gets at-will 24 hour long invisibility (it's not the improved kind, though, so he'd have to re-cast it every once in a while) as a lesser invocation ( I think level 5 or so?)

Warlocks aren't exactly an exceptionally strong class though.

So, Darkness doesn't actually do a whole lot to conceal you; There are plenty of monsters that would have high Listen (or Spot, for that matter), and plenty of monsters with Tremorsense/Blindsense/Blindsight or regular Darksight or Low Light Vision...

Considering how a warlock gets only 2 skills per level with a fairly limited skill set, I doubt that he could actually sneak his way through via Hide and Move Silently (which aren't even on warlock's class list if I'm not mistaken).

Always keep in mind that it only takes DC 20 Spot to notice that there is someone or something invisible (when your warlock finally gets his hand on Walk Unseen invocation) and a Listen check vs Move Silently check to do the same.

[broli]

WOW, just WOW

we have been playing for so long with so broken rules!!!

im reading the Spanish manual and the SDR, and its incredible

someone decided that "shadowy illumination" was translated to "oscuridad" (literal translation of darkness)

its going to be so fun next session :D :D

[LansXero]

Yeah, the translation is really sloppy at some parts; sometimes they also forgot to check for consistency between the terms used in previous and new books and stuff like that.

[broli]

after thinking a little more, i realize, im just going to destroy the character for that particular player ...

the darkness spell in the way we where using is a total game breaker.

im going to have to decide what to do..

[Waker]

Well, if the player was reading the same book you were, they aren't at fault for a sloppy translation. Before the next session, just make sure that the player is brought up to speed on exactly what the limitations are on the spell. And if they try the same trick again, well they were warned.

[lokoone]

hmm..
how about you let him trade his invocations?

[sonofzeal]

after thinking a little more, i realize, im just going to destroy the character for that particular player ...

the darkness spell in the way we where using is a total game breaker.

im going to have to decide what to do..

Talk it over with him before game starts. Come to an agreement. Anything else is going to be bad, in the long run.

[Diarmuid]

Agreed, explain that through improper translation he was able to trivialize what should have been a challenging encounter. Explain that you will be using the rules as intended going forward and offer a respec on his invocation choices and if it's completely going to ruin the char, try to work in a way for him to make a new character.

[AslanCross]

Talk it over with him before game starts. Come to an agreement. Anything else is going to be bad, in the long run.

This is the best solution. It's not his fault and neither is it yours, so he shouldn't be punished. The translation was bad. Talk to him, explain the issue, and if he asks to swap out his invocations, then that would be a good solution.

[Kuma Kode]

A blanket of utter darkness was how Darkness worked in 3.0. It was changed.

However, even if he did use that combination using 3.0's version, he still suffers from the same problems any warlock has who invests too heavily into a power: he becomes a one-trick pony.

Sure, he might have a really awesome darkness combo, but he has no leftover invocations. It's the only thing he can do. Against a monster with blindsight or something else that doesn't rely on vision, he's nothing but an archer without feats.

[tyckspoon]

Many types of Undead, including practically ALL forms of Incorporeal undead have something called Lifesight or Lifesense which also ignores any darkness or material objects.

That's actually quite rare- the general ability is a feat printed in Libris Mortis. Since it was printed in a semi-obscure splat, the only place you'll find it as a default ability is usually other LM monsters. And it doesn't ignore darkness, either; it just makes living creatures into alternate sources of illumination, which is subject to the normal rules for illumination. So an undead creature with Lifesense can ignore mundane darkness, because the creature it's looking at is generating light for it, but it won't do anything against magical darkness that already counteracts mundane light sources.

[MeeposFire]

hmm..
how about you let him trade his invocations?

I would if your friend does not like them anymore because of this. I would allow your friend to try it if they want to make sure first. Ten again I am very lenient about this sort of thing.

[broli]

My policie is "whatever it makes my players hapy, as long as it dosnt interfiere with others fun"


Thats why i allow a totaly broken bard, that gives everyone a +6y profane bonus(an thus stackable) to attak and damage.

It makes the whole party enjoy more they battles...

The darkness robbed the others of a great dungeon i had prepared. I promiised at least 2 session of mindless battle, and it lasted 10 mins

This person is a smart one, has experience dming, and im sure he will understand the logic of this, and will accept the change

I just hope i can deliver something in return, thats good enough to get him going again.

[MeeposFire]

My policie is "whatever it makes my players hapy, as long as it dosnt interfiere with others fun"


Thats why i allow a totaly broken bard, that gives everyone a +6y profane bonus(an thus stackable) to attak and damage.

It makes the whole party enjoy more they battles...

The darkness robbed the others of a great dungeon i had prepared. I promiised at least 2 session of mindless battle, and it lasted 10 mins

This person is a smart one, has experience dming, and im sure he will understand the logic of this, and will accept the change

I just hope i can deliver something in return, thats good enough to get him going again.

Best way to do that is to show some other mechanics that are interesting. For instance would having claws made of fell energy be interesting to him? If so show him the eldritch claw feat.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

That's actually quite rare- the general ability is a feat printed in Libris Mortis. Since it was printed in a semi-obscure splat, the only place you'll find it as a default ability is usually other LM monsters. And it doesn't ignore darkness, either; it just makes living creatures into alternate sources of illumination, which is subject to the normal rules for illumination. So an undead creature with Lifesense can ignore mundane darkness, because the creature it's looking at is generating light for it, but it won't do anything against magical darkness that already counteracts mundane light sources.

That's not the one I'm talking about...

Lifesense (Su)

A dread wraith notices and locates living creatures within 60 feet, just as if it possessed the blindsight ability. It also senses the strength of their life force automatically, as if it had cast deathwatch.

That's the one I'm talking about. From the SRD.

You are correct, it isn't as common as I thought it was. However, it should be trivial to include this into other undead, if a combo was being broken.

Honestly, I'd talk to the player, explain how Darkness actually works, and offer him a chance to either work with the rules as written, or give him a chance to change his character, if that isn't going to work for him.

[Kuma Kode]

You are correct, it isn't as common as I thought it was. However, it should be trivial to include this into other undead, if a combo was being broken.

Undead have unusual sight as a houserule in my games. They don't see light like living creatures do (it made little sense, anyway), and so they see through illusions and darkness. Hide from Undead works as normal, making it valuable in these games.

It doesn't actually make them more powerful, it just makes them feel different than living creatures because normally useful tricks simply don't work on them.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Undead have unusual sight as a houserule in my games. They don't see light like living creatures do (it made little sense, anyway), and so they see through illusions and darkness. Hide from Undead works as normal, making it valuable in these games.

It doesn't actually make them more powerful, it just makes them feel different than living creatures because normally useful tricks simply don't work on them.

Yea, I do something like that in my games as well.

Lesser undead, the mindless ones, are fairly normal, for animated corpses.

Most of the non-mindless, or incorporeal, ones either don't use normal sight, or have a lifesense in addition to sight. This lets them detect the presence of life essence, direction and distance, within their detection radius. Hide from Undead blocks this ability. This lets incorporeal undead make surprise attacks through walls, which they really don't perceive anyways.


It's not that they don't see illusions, it's just that illusions hold no particular interest for them, because it isn't alive, and doesn't have any life essence to steal, and so they generally ignore it as meaningless background clutter.