[3.5] Should Astral Construct be a general Psion/Wilder power?

[Endarire]

This is a power I take for all my Psions, and has been recommended elsewhere as something every Psion should learn.

Shaper Psions can learn it normally. Other psionic classes must research it, spend a feat, or acquire it another way.

In contrast, temporal acceleration feels like it should be Nomad-only, but it's a Psion/Wilder power.

[ScionoftheVoid]

This is a power I take for all my Psions, and has been recommended elsewhere as something every Psion should learn.

Shaper Psions can learn it normally. Other psionic classes must research it, spend a feat, or acquire it another way.

In contrast, temporal acceleration feels like it should be Nomad-only, but it's a Psion/Wilder power.

It's good enough that you always take it on every Psion, even spending a feat? That suggests to me that it is only balanced by being in one of the weaker discipline lists. Astral Construct is Metacreativity's greatest draw, and access to it at first level is the only reason to play a Shaper. I'd say to keep it as it is.

[Cog]

Astral Construct is Metacreativity's greatest draw, and access to it at first level is the only reason to play a Shaper.

The Mind's Eye ACF is also a very good reason to play a Shaper.

[MammonAzrael]

The Mind's Eye ACF is also a very good reason to play a Shaper.

Alternate class features should never be the reason you're drawn to a class or choice like a discipline. The class or choice should be strong enough on its own.

(I'm not saying that this doesn't happen, just that it is bad game design, and shouldn't be banked on.)

[Lateral]

It's good enough that you always take it on every Psion, even spending a feat? That suggests to me that it is only balanced by being in one of the weaker discipline lists. Astral Construct is Metacreativity's greatest draw, and access to it at first level is the only reason to play a Shaper. I'd say to keep it as it is.

Wait, what? Metacreativity is one of the best Psion disciplines. They've got a great deal of strong, useful powers on their discipline list; Astral Construct is great, Psionic Minor Creation is the equivalent of a 4th level spell, Ectoplasmic Cocoon effectively takes one enemy out of the fight on a failed save, Psionic Fabricate is the equivalent of a 5th level spell, Hail of Crystals is a good blast spell that ignores PR and SR (and that's a big thing), Crystallize is a 6th level Save or Lose (basically die, really, but technically not), Psionic Greater Fabricate lets you fabricate an OBSCENE amount of stuff, Mass Ectoplasmic Cocoon is effectively end an encounter if they fail their saves, and Genesis lets you make a goddamn demiplane.

[dsmiles]

The Mind's Eye ACF is also a very good reason to play a Shaper.

I find the Mind's Eye stuff even more useful for Telepaths. Especially the Shadowmind PrC, and the Telepathy ACF.

[Psyren]

access to it at first level is the only reason to play a Shaper. I'd say to keep it as it is.

Have you seen their list?
Astral Construct is far from the only reason, especially since ANY Psion can get it at first level.

[Endarire]

Astral construct is a potent power. With player creativity, you can do lots of things, like power armor.

Astral construct isn't the only reason to play a Shaper, but for me, it's the most compelling one. The Personal Construct ACF is the second most compelling reason.

[ScionoftheVoid]

Apparently, I was misremembering the Shaper list somewhat, rarely if ever having looked past the first level or so. Sorry about that. Nevertheless, if it's good enough to cost a feat every time, it's probably a good idea to keep it costing that feat (or being a Shaper). Besides, the duration is going to be awful until about third level anyway.

[Trekkin]

Astral construct is a potent power. With player creativity, you can do lots of things, like power armor.

Astral construct isn't the only reason to play a Shaper, but for me, it's the most compelling one. The Personal Construct ACF is the second most compelling reason.

Personal Construct is especially fun if you notice that technically there aren't any limits on the capabilities of that construct, even by level. Without that obviously cheesy RAW, it's still almost an automatic choice for my Shapers.

[MammonAzrael]

Apparently, I was misremembering the Shaper list somewhat, rarely if ever having looked past the first level or so. Sorry about that. Nevertheless, if it's good enough to cost a feat every time, it's probably a good idea to keep it costing that feat (or being a Shaper). Besides, the duration is going to be awful until about third level anyway.

Metacreativity is better than Astral Construct, should it be removed from the Egoist list? What about Psionic Dominate? Schism? At what level do defining powers move from a specialist list to the general one? Taking Astral Construct sounds more like a personal preference to me, as I can imagine plenty of characters that wouldn't take it, and still be totally bad ass psions.

[Thrawn183]

Why make Psions even stronger? It's not like they need the boost.

[ScionoftheVoid]

Metacreativity is better than Astral Construct, should it be removed from the Egoist list? What about Psionic Dominate? Schism? At what level do defining powers move from a specialist list to the general one? Taking Astral Construct sounds more like a personal preference to me, as I can imagine plenty of characters that wouldn't take it, and still be totally bad ass psions.

The whole reason the OP considered moving it to the general list was because they always took it for their Psions. I probably wouldn't do the same, I'm just working with what the OP provided. Besides, I'm in favour of keeping it Shaper-only because it's good, where you seem to imply that's a reason to make it general. We could well be arguing the same thing.

[Psyren]

Thing is, there are plenty of discipline powers that most Psions (and even Psywars) see as auto-picks. Schism, Fly, Metamorphosis, Teleport... and that's without getting into the powers from other class lists altogether, like Dimension Hop (Ardent-only), Psywar Hustle (available earlier and cheaper) etc. The solution is exactly what Pathfinder did - give more feats, so that you have more EKs to customize your Psion the way you like.

[Lateral]

Yeah, it always pisses me off that you can't nab Psionic Teleport without being a Nomad.

[MammonAzrael]

The whole reason the OP considered moving it to the general list was because they always took it for their Psions. I probably wouldn't do the same, I'm just working with what the OP provided. Besides, I'm in favour of keeping it Shaper-only because it's good, where you seem to imply that's a reason to make it general. We could well be arguing the same thing.

Heh...indeed we are. I am also in favor of keeping Astral Construct, and the other powers I mentioned, unique to their given discipline. I was asking the OP where he felt the line should be drawn.

[Psyren]

Yeah, it always pisses me off that you can't nab Psionic Teleport without being a Nomad.

Well, you can, it just costs a feat.

Which brings me back to the "3.5 needs more feats, PF did it better" point. But since the tables near me are only playing either PF or 4e anyways, maybe I'm biased.

[Lateral]

Which brings me back to the "3.5 needs more feats, PF did it better" point.

That's pretty much a universal contention, although it does make Fighter dips a little less useful for feat-starved melee builds.

[Endarire]

For just about all my Psions and PsyWars, I consider these:

astral construct (Shaper1)
energy missile (Kineticist2)
expansion (PsyWar1)
metamorphosis (Egoist4)
schism (Telepath4)
synchronicity (Psion1)

These are my main reasons for picking a certain discipline or class.

As for where to draw the line, that's a matter of opinion. I wanted to know what others thought.

As for astral construct specifically, it's a tremendously versatile power with a creative player and a willing DM. I've pondered how well I would do with a Psion who manifested only astral construct and metamorphosis.

[dsmiles]

For just about all my Psions and PsyWars, I consider these:

astral construct (Shaper1)
energy missile (Kineticist2)
expansion (PsyWar1)
metamorphosis (Egoist4)
schism (Telepath4)
synchronicity (Psion1)

These are my main reasons for picking a certain discipline or class.

As for where to draw the line, that's a matter of opinion. I wanted to know what others thought.

As for astral construct specifically, it's a tremendously versatile power with a creative player and a willing DM. I've pondered how well I would do with a Psion who manifested only astral construct and metamorphosis.

I'll tell ya, I exclusively play evil, world-dominating telepaths, when I play with psionics. But I always take Expanded Knowledge: Astral Construct.
EDIT: Also, I always take the telepathy ACF. The commands for psionic dominate do not have to be spoken.