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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Articulate your Inexplicable Loathing of Non-Core.

    When I asked my group, why they had a problem with my string of Warblades, Totemists, Crusaders, and Psychic Warriors, I couldn't get an answer beyond a knee-jerk "It's broken." Is there anyone here with an understandable reason for restricting 3.5 to core, other than having limited access to books?

    To my mind, playing core only 3.5 is counterintuitive. If you want a more "traditional" fantasy setting and your players to have fewer options, play 2nd edition. If you want it to be more balanced, play Fourth. Don't screw 3.5 out of its biggest strength(lots and lots of customization) just because you can't be bothered to read and understand some extra material.

    tl;dr: Do you have a well-thought out reason for playing 3.5 core only? What is it?

    Go to town. I'm not here to defend my position. I'm here to try to understand why some people hate non-core.

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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Articulate your Inexplicable Loathing of Non-Core.

    The issue with 4e is its more like World of Dungeoncraft, and not D&D. Every edition prior to 4e has a certain feel to it. 4e feels like I'm back playing WoW again.

    Now I'm all for splatbooks, but one guy I know is a little lost because he hates 4th ed, does not know 2e, so he sticks with 3.5 core. He doesn't like how his players abuse Dragon Mag feats and whatnot, and rather than sift through source books to find what he finds balanced he just bans it all.

    Its a pretty generalized blanket ban, but some people don't have time (or patience) to learn a new system.The fact he also only plays Wizards and druids MIGHT have something to do with it also...

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    Default Re: Articulate your Inexplicable Loathing of Non-Core.

    It's a question of power level. If one character is eclipsing the others, making them think "why am I even bothering rolling to hit when I could just wait two rounds and Baron Destructo there will finish him off" then you have a power imbalance. Adding non-core crunch to a mostly-core game is where said imbalance comes from.

    A DM's job is to either incorporate said sources in such a way that power imbalances do not happen (either by limiting Teir 1 combos or loading the lower teir PC's up with extra magic items) or just banning it outright.

    My gaming group takes a blended approach. Psionics are out, because only 1 or 2 people in the group have taken the time to understand their system. Incarnum is out for the same reason. And they're just starting to dabble with Tome of Battle and Tome of Magic.
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    HalflingWizardGirl

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    Default Re: Articulate your Inexplicable Loathing of Non-Core.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Bob View Post
    Don't screw 3.5 out of its biggest strength(lots and lots of customization) just because you can't be bothered to read and understand some extra material.
    I think that's the main reason. New classes, items, feats, spells, etc. increase the complexity of the game. They create new templates, new strategies, new enemies to fight and generally require more research.

    Furthermore, a more cynical player may believe that new books are "broken" because they think game companies will increase abilities to sell books. Some people simply don't see any advantage to investing more time and energy to learn new information. Plus, they may believe that the new books will make their preferred playstyles obsolete. They understand core, they are completely fine with it and they don't want the game to expand.

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Articulate your Inexplicable Loathing of Non-Core.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saint GoH View Post
    Its a pretty generalized blanket ban, but some people don't have time (or patience) to learn a new system.
    I generally don't ban anything anymore, unless I've read it, and believe it to be broken. I think this boils down to closed-minded-ness and patience more than time. I don't have much spare time on my hands, but I will still make time to read something that a player brings to me and says, "I want to play this." Open-minded DM's that allow splat and 3rd party stuff have a tendency to be the ones who improv more and plan less. That's the style of play that I enjoy, so that's what I try to do as a DM. Core is just as broken as the splatbooks, IMO, so why not allow splat?
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    Default Re: Articulate your Inexplicable Loathing of Non-Core.

    Part of the reason people think non-core is broken is because they think that non-core players are broken. Someone who plays non-core doesn't simply read one book and choose things that make sense for their character, they look through multiple books, which presumably means they've got higher standards. If you aren't satisfied with just core, then you're thinking about aspects of the game that they don't feel the need to think about, and the only aspect like that they're familiar with is powergaming. So people who go outside of core are thought of as powergamers.
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    Default Re: Articulate your Inexplicable Loathing of Non-Core.

    I can only think of only a few reasons I could think of that are viable reasons to ban non-Core is;

    Broken Stuff - This needs no explaining

    Complicated Stuff/New System - Some DM's can't deal with running a game AND learning how in god's name Incarnum/Psionics/ToB works. I've read the book on Incarnum three times and i've still not got it, and i'm not running a game on top of that.

    Wildly Differing Fluff - Yes, this is a vaild reason, depending on the circumstances. I'm not talking about a line of text that can be ignored, but some crunch is so intertwined with fluff it's hard to pry them apart, and then you get stuff like ToB which can veer into Naruto-y themed stuff easily (That 9th level Shadow Hand manuver alone is Anime incarnate), and i'm sorry, saying it doesn't fit in with the fluff CAN be a valid reason (Some people hate that reason when it comes up), because not everyone can be asked to re-fluff every dang thing the player wants.

    But a blanket ban? No, that's just stupid. Core has 3 of the Big 5 in it, and the other two (Artificer and Archivist) depend on the DM (Crafting time and Spell Availability) so much it's just pathetically easy to stop them. NO, Mr Artificer, you can't have 3 days to make the Uber-Golem 3000 and NO Mr Archivist, you don't find a library that has Uber-Spell of Ultimate Desolation.
    You can't do that in Core with Cleric/Druid/Maybe Wizard.

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    Default Re: Articulate your Inexplicable Loathing of Non-Core.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGeckoKing View Post
    Complicated Stuff/New System - Some DM's can't deal with running a game AND learning how in god's name Incarnum/Psionics/ToB works. I've read the book on Incarnum three times and i've still not got it, and i'm not running a game on top of that.
    Meldshaping is often used as an example of a complicated subsystem, but I've never found it that bad. Basically, you choose a bunch of magic items to wear each day, and can invest power into them round by round (think Star Trek - full power to shields!).
    Quote Originally Posted by TheGeckoKing View Post
    (That 9th level Shadow Hand manuver alone is Anime incarnate)
    Normal attack +15d6 and a save vs a penalty is "anime incarnate" now?

    Of course, the name is a pastiche/parody.
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    Default Re: Articulate your Inexplicable Loathing of Non-Core.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenish View Post
    Meldshaping is often used as an example of a complicated subsystem, but I've never found it that bad. Basically, you choose a bunch of magic items to wear each day, and can invest power into them round by round (think Star Trek - full power to shields!).
    Normal attack +15d6 and a save vs a penalty is "anime incarnate" now?

    Of course, the name is a pastiche/parody.
    For complicated subsystems, I think there's a large matter of player trust in there; if the GM doesn't have time to learn the system himself, he should be able to trust the player to learn and run the character accurately. "I don't have time to figure out what he's doing" is a valid reason to disallow stuff, but I like to think the people I play with aren't going to use my lack of time just to try and put one over on me like that. Although if you think the player himself isn't taking the time to figure out how his new character actually works.. yeah, ban away, that's just trouble.

    Anime? Shadow Hand is the discipline that's all about being a Magic Ninja. Of course it has anime tones, that's where most of the source material on that archetype is. That doesn't mean the other 8 disciplines and 2 base classes in the book have to be or even lend themselves well to characters that are 'too anime'.

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    Default Re: Articulate your Inexplicable Loathing of Non-Core.

    Speaking as a DM I don't allow ToB, Incarnum, Psionics or ToM simply because itan entire new way of doing things for everyone to learn and having to dig through five different books for each bogs down gameplay. The Completes the races series and the environment books (frostburn etc) are fine, great even and they use the same basic rules and mechanics as core (barring a few things which are by and large ignored) they are what gives 3.5 it's massive customizability and flavour.

    Now having said that, as a player I loathe the first group I mentioned. Not because of brokenness but on aesthetic. I've never liked psionics in fantasy games, always seemed more scifi to me, and I much prefer my martial characters to not leap around like teenagers in a bad anime.
    It might be that I play in low to mid optimized games and I hate comprimising the feel of a game for more power. I don't play to rofl-stomp everything in sight, I play to tell a good story.

    EDIT: hiveminded on most of my thoughts
    Last edited by The_Scourge; 2011-01-29 at 02:01 PM.
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    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: Articulate your Inexplicable Loathing of Non-Core.

    It takes long enough to level up with only one book at hand.

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    Default Re: Articulate your Inexplicable Loathing of Non-Core.

    Quote Originally Posted by tyckspoon View Post
    Anime? Shadow Hand is the discipline that's all about being a Magic Ninja. Of course it has anime tones, that's where most of the source material on that archetype is. That doesn't mean the other 8 disciplines and 2 base classes in the book have to be or even lend themselves well to characters that are 'too anime'.
    I'm not saying it's all "too anime". I remember a player that asked the DM if he could swap out disciplines to have Diamond Mind, Iron Soul, and something else, to be a bit less magical and a bit more "I'm so strong I can break your back in 5 different ways." What I meant is, is that it CAN veer off into "too anime", and some DM's won't like that.

    And yeah, I meant the name. I can't remember it, but I CAN remember it's not something that's not easily taken seriously.
    Last edited by TheGeckoKing; 2011-01-29 at 02:08 PM.

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    Default Re: Articulate your Inexplicable Loathing of Non-Core.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGeckoKing View Post
    And yeah, I meant the name. I can't remember it, but I CAN remember it's not something that's not easily taken seriously.
    Say it with me:

    Five-Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strikeeeeeeeee!!!

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    Default Re: Articulate your Inexplicable Loathing of Non-Core.

    I don't ban anything

    I just let my players know that if they go all uber cheese on me I reserve the full right to uber cheese them back

    example: the d2 infinite damage crusader? His weapon gets sundered (if I'm feeling really mean it all gets disintegrated) and what do you know! The monster dropped a regular non-master work weapon for him to now use.

    Wizard cheesing out? Hey guess what guys, the entire next dungeon is in an AMF (or you can always find a reason to deafen him if at lower levels before they can cure it)


    Now for the well roleplayed and non-cheesey wizard? awesome new magical robes!

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    Default Re: Articulate your Inexplicable Loathing of Non-Core.

    I'm playing with 4 people who started the game in November and 2 people that started 2 weeks ago. I'm not going to expect them to learn more than is necessary to play (which is substantial) while also going to one of the top (read: most work) high schools in the country.
    I take this game with the seriousness it deserves.
    Not all that much. It's a game.

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    Default Re: Articulate your Inexplicable Loathing of Non-Core.

    @Greenish...........Lol.

    I do have another reason why non-Core might be banned;

    Book-Dipping - "Hey boss, I've got this character, a Soulknife, and he's got a few feats from MoI, a few from XPH, a Prc from ToB, a couple of items from CompWarrior and this other book, and a Handle Animal'd pet from a Dragon Mag......."

    Ignoring that this would probably be an awful character, some DM's might ban non-Core to stop this.
    Last edited by TheGeckoKing; 2011-01-29 at 02:15 PM.

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    Default Re: Articulate your Inexplicable Loathing of Non-Core.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenish View Post
    Say it with me:

    Five-Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strikeeeeeeeee!!!

    Five-Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strikeeeeeeeee!!!

    That's what I love about ToB. The names are so fun to jump up and shout in the middle of combat!
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    Default Re: Articulate your Inexplicable Loathing of Non-Core.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGeckoKing View Post
    I do have another reason why non-Core might be banned;

    Book-Dipping
    Is there something inherently wrong with that?
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    Default Re: Articulate your Inexplicable Loathing of Non-Core.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vemynal View Post
    I don't ban anything

    I just let my players know that if they go all uber cheese on me I reserve the full right to uber cheese them back

    example: the d2 infinite damage crusader? His weapon gets sundered (if I'm feeling really mean it all gets disintegrated) and what do you know! The monster dropped a regular non-master work weapon for him to now use.

    Wizard cheesing out? Hey guess what guys, the entire next dungeon is in an AMF (or you can always find a reason to deafen him if at lower levels before they can cure it)


    Now for the well roleplayed and non-cheesey wizard? awesome new magical robes!

    etc
    I try to avoid thinking like this because it lessens the fun of the game for players. It's the whole "giving something then taking it away" problem it causes less problems if you say no in the first place.

    That and I'd rather the players not set fire to my person.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Articulate your Inexplicable Loathing of Non-Core.

    Honestly, I've never really understood the whole "it's broken" argument.

    When I think of all the books published during the run of 3.5, the one with the most broken, overpowered, encounter-ending, game-busting, campaign-ruining options in it is the Player's Handbook, which stands head and shoulders above everything else as the most unbalanced book in 3.5.
    Last edited by Fox Box Socks; 2011-01-29 at 02:21 PM.

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    Default Re: Articulate your Inexplicable Loathing of Non-Core.

    And if you're a sensible DM you'll ban the chain gate insence of meditation nonsense as well. Just because it's there doesn't mean youy have to allow it.
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    Default Re: Articulate your Inexplicable Loathing of Non-Core.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenish View Post
    Is there something inherently wrong with that?
    Not really, it's just some players don't know when to stop, and it takes the gecko when they spend a good few minutes looking up stuff in a splatbook because they wanna remind themselves of ONE feat, or something.

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    Default Re: Articulate your Inexplicable Loathing of Non-Core.

    You listed classes from ToB, XPH, and MoI, which I think are the books with the most divided base in 3.5. Many people love those books because they are balanced and have fun mechanics, as well as fluff they like. Many people hate those books because they think the fluff is horrible for the games they want, and do not want to have to deal with new and annoying mechanics. Otherwise, people can be anxious about players trying to use several books to Munchkin or having to learn new mechanics.

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    Default Re: Articulate your Inexplicable Loathing of Non-Core.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGeckoKing View Post
    Not really, it's just some players don't know when to stop, and it takes the gecko when they spend a good few minutes looking up stuff in a splatbook because they wanna remind themselves of ONE feat, or something.
    If you can't remember how your character's abilities work, you should write them down, preferably with page references. I usually do that anyway.

    And it's not too different from that core-only monk who wants to grapple.
    Last edited by Greenish; 2011-01-29 at 02:29 PM. Reason: "Can't" instead of "can".
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yukitsu View Post
    I define [optimization] as "the process by which one attains a build meeting all mechanical and characterization goals set out by the creator prior to its creation."
    Praise for avatar may be directed to Derjuin.

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    Default Re: Articulate your Inexplicable Loathing of Non-Core.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGeckoKing View Post
    @Greenish...........Lol.

    I do have another reason why non-Core might be banned;

    Book-Dipping - "Hey boss, I've got this character, a Soulknife, and he's got a few feats from MoI, a few from XPH, a Prc from ToB, a couple of items from CompWarrior and this other book, and a Handle Animal'd pet from a Dragon Mag......."

    Ignoring that this would probably be an awful character, some DM's might ban non-Core to stop this.
    Sometimes you need dipping to make a viable character since they put useful options scattered throughout every book (60% of books is junk for that type of character).
    Look at fear effects: find me one good book for them for a martial character. You can find tiny bits in lots of book but very little in just one.

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    Default Re: Articulate your Inexplicable Loathing of Non-Core.

    Well, I'm not saying the books are broken, and I didn't mean to pick out thoes books in particular. The point is some people go overboard with all the options they pick, and slow the game down looking them all up.
    Maybe i've just had bad experiences

    Oh, and yeah, Munchkins. At least with Core-Only, it's easier to limit the damage they can do.
    Last edited by TheGeckoKing; 2011-01-29 at 02:31 PM.

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    Default Re: Articulate your Inexplicable Loathing of Non-Core.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGeckoKing View Post
    Well, I'm not saying the books are broken, and I didn't mean to pick out thoes books in particular. The point is some people go overboard with all the options they pick, and slow the game down looking them all up.
    Again, player problem, not source problem. *Everything* on your character sheet should be annotated with source and, if possible, page reference, no matter if it comes from Core or not.

    Edit: And summary of effect, when available. Fillable-PDF character sheets and spell/item cards make that really easy to do.
    Last edited by tyckspoon; 2011-01-29 at 02:32 PM.

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    Default Re: Articulate your Inexplicable Loathing of Non-Core.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGeckoKing View Post
    Oh, and yeah, Munchkins. At least with Core-Only, it's easier to limit the damage they can do.
    That's an easy fix. Just ban munchkins. Make your table a "Munchkin-Free Zone."
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    Default Re: Articulate your Inexplicable Loathing of Non-Core.

    Then i've just had bad experiances, it seems. Dang sponge-brained Soulknife sucking so bad we volunteered to all lose a level to make him feel useful.........

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    Default Re: Articulate your Inexplicable Loathing of Non-Core.

    I'm told that Soulknives actually aren't bad if you bump them up to full BAB.

    Not fantastic, mind you, but not bad.

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