Hellbred saint?

[Tenebris]

All right, I've tried in the Simple Q&A D&D 3.5 thread, but didn't get any satisfying answer. Too late it dawned on me that in fact these aren't as simple questions as I've thought :(

Questions:
1) Does being a hellbred automatically disqualify a character from taking exalted feats (since they get Devil's Favor as a bonus feat)?
2) Should hellbred (body aspect) suffer penalty on charisma skill checks due to his bonus devil-touched feats?

My opinion:
1) By RAW: yes. Logically thinking: no. Hellbred doesn't have to make a pact with a devil to get devil's favor benefits.
2) Yes. Despite foregoing, possessing devil-touched feats may seem repugnant to forces of Good.

What is your opinion on this topic? And finally, can a hellbred become a saint? Should they be considered redeemed after acquiring a saint template?

[dsmiles]

My Opinion:
No. Ever heard of the Succubus Paladin? Having the [Evil] sub-type doesn't exclude anyone from becoming a holy warrior, why should hellbred exclude anyone from being exalted, unless it says you have to be evil to be hellbred. (IIRC, it doesn't.)

[Sir_Chivalry]

All right, I've tried in the Simple Q&A D&D 3.5 thread, but didn't get any satisfying answer. Too late it dawned on me that in fact these aren't as simple questions as I've thought :(

Questions:
1) Does being a hellbred automatically disqualify a character from taking exalted feats (since they get Devil's Favor as a bonus feat)?
2) Should hellbred (body aspect) suffer penalty on charisma skill checks due to his bonus devil-touched feats?

My opinion:
1) By RAW: yes. Logically thinking: no. Hellbred doesn't have to make a pact with a devil to get devil's favor benefits.
2) Yes. Despite foregoing, possessing devil-touched feats may seem repugnant to forces of Good.

What is your opinion on this topic? And finally, can a hellbred become a saint? Should they be considered redeemed after acquiring a saint template?

1) No, as the feat Devil's Favor is not a feat that requires an evil alignment to take. If you can find a way to get the feat and still be good (which hellbred allows easily), you can have you hellbred that turns into a swan.

2) No. If it did this, it would say in the racial abilities. Someone who finds the hellbred repugnant should do so through circumstancial penalties applied by the DM, but this could be done for anyone.

[Tenebris]

All right, let me ask you simple question: have any of you actually read devil-touched feats description on page 80 fiendish codex?

Yes, a hellbred can be good-aligned, in fact must be. But they have build-in at least one devil touched feat, and that's what should make them unable to take exalted feats. Even if devils favor required evil alignment, a hellbred bypass it automatically, same as all other prerequisites, but I'm not sure, if they can get rid of the effects of actually having a devil-touched feat (which, as we all should know by now, makes any character unable to become exalted ever again or benefit from exalted feats they already posses).

[Kaww]

By RAW you can't take exalted feats. Thus you don't meet the requirements

Then again the EXAMPLE PALADIN SAINT doesn't meet the requirements ether. I laughed so hard when I noticed that some two weeks ago...

Talk to your DM, if he says it's ok - it's ok. I would give you a green light if I allowed the Saint template.

[Alleine]

You could get picky and say you can take exalted feats since the exact wording on Devil-touched feats says:

After selecting a devil-touched feat, you can no longer use or select exalted feats (see Book of Exalted Deeds)

So unless you went with the body aspect of hellbred you aren't actually selecting any feats. You just happen to get it. That might not fly with your DM though.

Its pretty clear to me though, without trying to sneak past that restriction, that a hellbred can't take exalted feats. That may have even been the intent of the writers in order to accentuate the whole "you went to hell once and are irrevocably tainted somehow" angle. Kinda sucks but that's the way it goes.

If the DM is the kind of person who can let annoying things like this slide, then just talk to your DM.

[woodenbandman]

I'd make you shun the dark chaos and get rid of your devil touched feats.

[CockroachTeaParty]

From a more fluff perspective, I don't think you can become a saint without a 'spotless record,' so to speak. The very fate of being a hellbred means you clearly don't have a spotless record, and are thus ineligible for sainthood from the start.

[dsmiles]

From a more fluff perspective, I don't think you can become a saint without a 'spotless record,' so to speak. The very fate of being a hellbred means you clearly don't have a spotless record, and are thus ineligible for sainthood from the start.

Somehow I doubt that. Just because you are evil or even Evil doesn't mean that you can't become so sickeningly Good that you become exalted, or even a Saint.

[UserClone]

Nope, cockroach has it right. in order to be a saint, you have to never have been evil or willingly committed evil acts.

[dsmiles]

That seems kind of ridiculous to me. How is a truly repentant villain supposed to redeem him/her-self?

[senrath]

Do it without the Saint template?

[Ernir]

That seems kind of ridiculous to me. How is a truly repentant villain supposed to redeem him/her-self?

He can get all kinds of good. He can become Good, take Paladin levels, take [Exalted] feats, and everything... but he can't become a Saint, because the Saint template requires you to have never been evil.

[MeeposFire]

That seems kind of ridiculous to me. How is a truly repentant villain supposed to redeem him/her-self?

Sanctified template. It is right near the saint one if I recall and it is supposed to represent a formally evil creature converted to good typically by magical means.

[dsmiles]

That's not my interpretation of it, but to each their own.

[LansXero]

Sanctified template. It is right near the saint one if I recall and it is supposed to represent a formally evil creature converted to good typically by magical means.

through holy mindrape specifically, I think.

[dsmiles]

through holy mindrape specifically, I think.

That's exactly what it is.

[Trekkin]

That seems kind of ridiculous to me. How is a truly repentant villain supposed to redeem him/her-self?

That's the point, isn't it? Saints aren't people anymore; they're so Good that they fit better as alien entities, like angels. A redeemed villain is too intensely human (or other race) to be removed from the human experience via sainthood.

Really, reading over the template, it seems faintly ridiculous just how uncompromisingly, unswervingly Good a pre-Saint has to be. I, at least, read the consistent answering of saintly prayers as a mark of just how far removed from normal a Saint actually is; in the eyes of its god, it's nothing like a human.

Regarding the OP: A Hellbred Saint would be strange indeed, since they are by their very nature already damned; the reason they're Hellbred is to give them a chance to undamn themselves, which is why they're so frantic.

[LansXero]

That's the point, isn't it? Saints aren't people anymore; they're so Good that they fit better as alien entities, like angels. A redeemed villain is too intensely human (or other race) to be removed from the human experience via sainthood.

Really, reading over the template, it seems faintly ridiculous just how uncompromisingly, unswervingly Good a pre-Saint has to be. I, at least, read the consistent answering of saintly prayers as a mark of just how far removed from normal a Saint actually is; in the eyes of its god, it's nothing like a human.

Regarding the OP: A Hellbred Saint would be strange indeed, since they are by their very nature already damned; the reason they're Hellbred is to give them a chance to undamn themselves, which is why they're so frantic.

I would say that someone who has been in hell and has had the willpower and conviction to reach the moral standards to become a saint while resisting the obvious taint from the depths and their past is indeed a bit beyond humans, as well. While it may not be valid by RAW, the image of someone like that is indeed inspiring. Slight christian tangent: by RAW, St. Paul wouldve never been able to become a saint, but is one of the biggest ones there is.

[dsmiles]

I would say that someone who has been in hell and has had the willpower and conviction to reach the moral standards to become a saint while resisting the obvious taint from the depths and their past is indeed a bit beyond humans, as well. While it may not be valid by RAW, the image of someone like that is indeed inspiring.

Far more eloquent than me just saying that it's ridiculous.

[UserClone]

I as a DM would consider applying the Sanctified Creature template to such a being, but not the Saint template.

Although I am in a game with a Saint NPC who originally was an assassin, so obviously you are not the only person with your point of view.

[Coidzor]

Its pretty clear to me though, without trying to sneak past that restriction, that a hellbred can't take exalted feats. That may have even been the intent of the writers in order to accentuate the whole "you went to hell once and are irrevocably tainted somehow" angle. Kinda sucks but that's the way it goes.

What? I thought Hellbreds were supposed to be an example of redemption always being a possibility.

[dsmiles]

I as a DM would consider applying the Sanctified Creature template to such a being, but not the Saint template.

Because laser eyes are so much cooler than being a saint.

[Trekkin]

What? I thought Hellbreds were supposed to be an example of redemption always being a possibility.

Sort of; I don't have the book in front of me, but they always struck me as a sort of living warning against counting on redemption. They get another chance, yes, but one that only actually counts for anything in the long-term sense if they pull off some extraordinary act of good; otherwise, they've just spent an awful second lifetime futilely trying to change the ultimately inevitable fate they created for themselves as a result of actions they no longer remember; if I recall correctly, they get mindwiped before being thrown back.

Less a message of hope, and more a horrible proclamation that exploiting the fine print of the Pact Primeval is for the people in power only.

[Callos_DeTerran]

What? I thought Hellbreds were supposed to be an example of redemption always being a possibility.

Just because you can redeem yourself doesn't mean you qualify to be a Saint, maybe a saint, but not a Saint. And there's a difference between the two. To put it simply, redemption and Sainthood are not inclusive. One doesn't require Sainthood to attain redemption.

[Tenebris]

What? I thought Hellbreds were supposed to be an example of redemption always being a possibility.

The conditions for a hellbred being truly redeemed are so insane, that they (both hellbred characters and conditions :) ) seem to me only an example of so-called "good deities" having twisted sense of humor. On the other hand, becoming a saint also demands extraordinary sacrifice, so maybe it supposed to work that way

[Alleine]

What? I thought Hellbreds were supposed to be an example of redemption always being a possibility.

And being Exalted is an example of good that is both stupid* and impossible**.
I never said it made sense. Personally, a Saint Hellbred (or a character working their way there) sounds like it could be loads of fun and I wish it would work, but RAW doesn't seem to support it.


*See discussions on Sanctify the Wicked, AKA mindrape with the Good tag on it
**Seriously, has anyone looked at what it takes to be Exalted? It's like the Paladin's code interpreted by a jerk DM who thinks people falling is hilarious. Only worse.

[hamishspence]

**Seriously, has anyone looked at what it takes to be Exalted? It's like the Paladin's code interpreted by a jerk DM who thinks people falling is hilarious. Only worse.

You mean, rules like "if an enemy has surrendered, you may not kill them out-of-hand"?

Most of the rules are a case of "do not commit evil acts" + "be altruistic"- these are all it takes to be an "exalted character"- along with taking an exalted feat.

Some exalted feats have more severe requirements- but basic Exalted feats only require:

a Good alignment + not committing evil acts + altruism.

Similarly- the Saint template doesn't require that you never have done evil acts- only that you never have lost Exalted feats. A being that started out evil, became good, and started taking Exalted feats, could in theory achieve sainthood-
it is only falling from Exaltedness, that permanently rules out Sainthood, even if Exaltedness is re-achieved.

*See discussions on Sanctify the Wicked, AKA mindrape with the Good tag on it.

The two spells don't really have all that much in common. You can't mind-read someone with StW, you can't plant specific memories, or modify their personality to fit exactly what you want.

All it does, in effect is change the target's alignment, and grant them the Sanctified Creature template.

[AtomicKitKat]

Sanctify the Wicked is more accurately the reverse of Morality Undone.

[DaragosKitsune]

I think the point about Sanctify the Wicked is that it violently and painfully permanently alters an individual's body, soul, and moral structure against the individual's will. Think of what that would be like. A force invading your mind and tearing part of who you are out in the most painful fashion possible. And this is a [Good] spell.