[3.5] What is my friend playing?

[The Rabbler]

One of my friends, let's call him Dave, came to our table on Saturday with a druid that he claimed was level 4 while the rest of our party was level 8. He had 4 grey renders following him around and he said that he could control up to 8. He had about the same amount of health as the rest of us (a bit more than I had and I had rolled well with d8s and a high con). The real shocker was that he could break the action economy (for "fluff reasons"); he cast some sort of damage spell (standard action), moved up to an undead (move action), and cast a cure spell (standard action).

now, Dave won't explain what was going on to any of us players but apparently our DM knows exactly what's happening. I've never heard of this before and I'd like to know how he's doing what he's doing because I'm the closest thing we have to a rules lawyer and Dave has a history of making characters while suffering through a fever and consequently making some fairly significant mistakes because of it (ex: persisted wings of flurry)

If it helps, the closest thing that we got to an explanation was that Dave was using some dragon magazine stuff. Also, apparently he's level 4 because our DM had to nerf him pretty hard.

[2xMachina]

Handle animal abuse.

Homebrewed deal with the devil? I think a 2nd char is possessing/merged with him, so he has double HP, and double actions.

[faceroll]

My guess is that he's actually a necromancer.

Or a fiend of possession.

[The Rabbler]

Handle animal abuse.

Homebrewed deal with the devil? I think a 2nd char is possessing/merged with him, so he has double HP, and double actions.

That could explain the grey renders.

Dave made it clear that nothing was homebrewed; only that it was from dragon magazine. I doubt the second, but it's possible.

My guess is that he's actually a necromancer.

Or a fiend of possession.

not sure how a necromancer would break the action economy at our level...

I highly doubt he's a fiend of possession; our characters are level 8. I've never seen a build that could possess people before level 13-ish.

[Dust]

The list of prestige classes found in Dragon doesn't provide many clues, honestly. There's a few I don't recognize and can't find such as the ones that appeared in #287, but otherwise....

I'm not buying the fact that he's a druid, though. Is it possible Dave's a psionic with the Thrallherd PrC? You could min-max a low-level entry into that.

Is he using any blatantly unusual items?

[Combat Reflexes]

The real shocker was that he could break the action economy (for "fluff reasons"); he cast some sort of damage spell (standard action), moved up to an undead (move action), and cast a cure spell (standard action).

Hmm, there are not a lot of ways to break the action economy.
1. he uses DMM [Quicken] (not likely)
2. he is a Ruby Knight Windicator (even less likely)
3. he has Persisted Celerity on (hit him with the DMG! repeatedly!)
4. he uses Travel Devotion (likely)

I have no dragon magazines, but did they ever publish rules for possession?
also, what race is Dave using? He could some kind of mind flayer-ish controller.

If it helps, the closest thing that we got to an explanation was that Dave was using some dragon magazine stuff.

And that's why all players should bring copies of the materials they used to the table. It won't hurt, and it worked for our group.

Oh, and Handle animal abuse. Even more illegal than animal abuse

[Killer Angel]

Oh, and Handle animal abuse. Even more illegal than animal abuse

This, the Dragon Magazine, and other stuffs... the player's build is abusive, and sounds like the DM is guilty as well.

[Amnestic]

Hmm, there are not a lot of ways to break the action economy.
1. he uses DMM [Quicken] (not likely)

I think that's the least likely, since Dave is playing a Druid, who can't Turn/Rebuke Undead as far as I know.

[Combat Reflexes]

I think that's the least likely, since Dave is playing a Druid, who can't Turn/Rebuke Undead as far as I know.

It was just a suggestion maybe there is some druid acf on the edge of the universe that gets turn undead, or maybe Dave has a level of Exorcist or Cleric. I mentioned it because it's the only way to get quicken at 4th level.

[Rawn]

For the action economy thing there is also the Belt of Battle, which can give you an extra standard action once per day. Though the price is way outside the WBL at 4th.

[SiuiS]

For the action economy thing there is also the Belt of Battle, which can give you an extra standard action once per day. Though the price is way outside the WBL at 4th.

Is it? Consider that a feat which grants you a mentor (and a lenient DM, which can actually substitute for a feat) can give you a caster with an artisan feat (-25%) from eberon, an artisan feat from OA (another -25%) and can abuse the section in the back of the DMG to make an item which o ly works for certain classes and certain alignments for an additional reduction (-30% I believe). So we have the ability to make magic items of a certain category for 1/5th the cost. We can also cut the cost on half, because crafting requires less than market price.

WBL and the magic item system are... Flawed.

[Swooper]

Why grey renders? Is he using a class, acf or feat that lets him control them? I think there was a Dragon magazine that had a grey render ecology article, maybe it had some crunch as well that he could be using.

[Jair Barik]

Could be he is using a spellcasting variant of the Synad as his race.

[theos911]

Oh, and Handle animal abuse. Even more illegal than animal abuse

Actually, it can be very fun if worked into a character where it isn't being abused. I have a gnome barbarian named Grobnar. I wanted a naturey themed character for our upcoming campaign. His age cat is old. His stats are 8,8,11,16,14,20 . I don't remember what point buy I used. Since, I wasn't making a melle barbarian, dm let me use more than default 2 flaws. Most of those extras went to making him better with animals and less able to see. At level one, with a tad of wbl altering through backstory(not abused and Dm approved). He has a total +15 mod to handle animal(+17 if he uses his masterwork kit). So, at level 1 he can take 10 and succeed on anything, but pushing an injured animal(so long as he hasn't used his speak with animals racial spell, the dm allows that to be a +2 mod for emergency situations in which my bear/badger is doing something REALLY STUPID). He has a warbeast badger and wb bear (I forget black or brown). He normally needs to use rage to be able to stand up and constantly complains as you would expect an old cranky preachey gnome to do. What was funny was when our drunk monk and fighter couldn't land a hit on the bbeg, my badger was raging and taking massive damage, and my bear was put asleep. I rollled a nat 20 on a charge with my dagger and nearly killed the bbeg.

His feats were
lvl 1 - Flexible Mind(I don't even remember what this one does)
murkey eyed -Animal Afinity
Love of nature -Skill Focus Handle Animal
Frail -Animal Friends(quasi homebrewed/altered version)

btw- anyone know the rules for intoxication?, since our monk isn't a drunken master yet, and we aren't sure how to handle it statwise

tl;dr, and yes kidna offtopic, but funny and enjoyable story

[true_shinken]

Is it? Consider that a feat which grants you a mentor (and a lenient DM, which can actually substitute for a feat) can give you a caster with an artisan feat (-25%) from eberon, an artisan feat from OA (another -25%) and can abuse the section in the back of the DMG to make an item which o ly works for certain classes and certain alignments for an additional reduction (-30% I believe). So we have the ability to make magic items of a certain category for 1/5th the cost. We can also cut the cost on half, because crafting requires less than market price.

WBL and the magic item system are... Flawed.

Of course they are, when you use guidelines as rules.

[SiuiS]

Grey renders also have a fluff hook where they will attach to someone and fight on their behalf.

Could be polymorphed animated objects, an advanced form of effigy, undead, or illusions over a different creature.

Also, know that, until you see a character sheet, you don't know if he's really a Druid at all.

[Allanimal]

btw- anyone know the rules for intoxication?, since our monk isn't a drunken master yet, and we aren't sure how to handle it statwise

Sorry to remain offtopic, but just a note. I could not find it in the rules compendium, but give the penalties of Drink Like a Demon (Drunken Master Class feature) with none of the benefits. I believe it is temporary loss of INT and WIS.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

1. The druid is his cohort, his character is an ECL 8 Fiend of Possession. He's probably pooling the two characters' HP, or the druid just as a high Con score due to the FoP giving him a +4 to every stat. Old trick, possess your cohort and play it off as though the cohort is your character, do broken stuff and impress the rest of your party.

2. A Fiend of Possession will typically start off as some sort of spellcaster, favorites are Warlock and Psion since they can cast personal-range buffs on whomever they're possessing. The Fiend of Possession casts a damage spell, such as Eldritch Blast or Energy Stun, the Druid then moves up to an undead and casts a cure spell on it. Two separate characters, two sets of actions, but they happen to share one body.

3. The gray renders are clearly Handle Animal abuse. You can't Handle Animal a magical beast with an Int score over 2, but a FoP can possess one and give it a penalty to its Int score with an unlimited duration. Possess a render, penalize its Int, druid trains it with handle animal, go find another render and repeat.

[LansXero]

1. The druid is his cohort, his character is an ECL 8 Fiend of Possession. He's probably pooling the two characters' HP, or the druid just as a high Con score due to the FoP giving him a +4 to every stat. Old trick, possess your cohort and play it off as though the cohort is your character, do broken stuff and impress the rest of your party.

2. A Fiend of Possession will typically start off as some sort of spellcaster, favorites are Warlock and Psion since they can cast personal-range buffs on whomever they're possessing. The Fiend of Possession casts a damage spell, such as Eldritch Blast or Energy Stun, the Druid then moves up to an undead and casts a cure spell on it. Two separate characters, two sets of actions, but they happen to share one body.

3. The gray renders are clearly Handle Animal abuse. You can't Handle Animal a magical beast with an Int score over 2, but a FoP can possess one and give it a penalty to its Int score with an unlimited duration. Possess a render, penalize its Int, druid trains it with handle animal, go find another render and repeat.

So thats why he said he could get 4 more, up to a total of 8? (to match with the fiend's ECL I guess?)

[Combat Reflexes]

Sorry to remain offtopic, but just a note. I could not find it in the rules compendium, but give the penalties of Drink Like a Demon (Drunken Master Class feature) with none of the benefits. I believe it is temporary loss of INT and WIS.

To end the offtopicness: alcohol is a poison (don't remember the DC) that deals 1d3 Dex and Wis damage, IIRC.

[Leon]

Sounds like a Beast Heart Adept that has been picked apart of the best bits and re-cobbled at a lower level.

Grey Renders are one of the top level of companions choices with a -8 to level.

Whatever it is tho seems it sounds the DM is in on the plan and everyone else is relegated to the dark

[Choco]

Now, the gray renders thing I can probably explain.

He says he can control up to 8, which is doable if he has 26-27 Charisma. He claims to be lvl 4 but his ECL is likely 8, I bet he has a template/race that gives a CHA boost.

How? Why, Render Bait!

It's a necklace in Savage Species, costs 35,640g too, which is quite a lot for an ECL 8 char. The important part is: "The wearer may bond with a number of renders that fail their save equal to his Charisma bonus (if any)"

[Combat Reflexes]

Now, the gray renders thing I can probably explain.

He says he can control up to 8, which is doable if he has 26-27 Charisma. He claims to be lvl 4 but his ECL is likely 8, I bet he has a template/race that gives a CHA boost.

How? Why, Render Bait!

It's a necklace in Savage Species, costs 35,640g too, which is quite a lot for an ECL 8 char. The important part is: "The wearer may bond with a number of renders that fail their save equal to his Charisma bonus (if any)"

Now, remember the Artisan feats - The druid is a fiend of possession that has crafted himself a Render Bait necklace. Gentlemen, we have a match!

[theos911]

To end the offtopicness: alcohol is a poison (don't remember the DC) that deals 1d3 Dex and Wis damage, IIRC.

That sounds about right! Thank you much.

[lord_khaine]

Wow, that was some pretty impressive rule abuse, and even more impressive that people could figure it out from so little information.

[FMArthur]

Wow, that was some pretty impressive rule abuse, and even more impressive that people could figure it out from so little information.

This. I am in awe of you guys.

[MeeposFire]

There are only a few ways of making something like this work. The reason it took as long as it did was because it was dragon material and la lot of people do not know dragon material

Still you are right it was very impressive good job everybody.

So OP gonna tell the druid out of game you know his secret?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

So OP gonna tell the druid out of game you know his secret?

Probably best to address this to the player and the DM. There's some serious abuse going on here, given the power of the rest of the party compared to this single character, and that's never a good thing to have at a table. Add to that the fact that Dragon Magazine material has a reputation for being...um...sporadically balanced (and that's the best I can say about it), and I'd say this is an issue that needs addressing.

[kenjigoku]

now, Dave won't explain what was going on to any of us players but apparently our DM knows exactly what's happening.

This caught my attention. Dave may simply be a plot device for your DM. Let it roll for awhile and see if it is. If it still seems that he is just there to break the game tell your DM that your not having any fun. If he cares at all your DM will inform you at that point that Dave is a plot device. If it turns out he is just letting Dave cheat, then beg to play pun pun or find a new DM.

[Asheram]

This is... Quite impressive. Both over the abitiy to find all of this, and the mind to come up with this abuse in the first place...

What DM allowed this? I'm surprised I don't smell the limburger from here.