Multiclassing for optimization for a Warblade

[ranger557]

Hey guys, I'm not sure if i have post this before but Im playing in a current campaign and we are starting at level 1 and Im a Goliath Warblade. However I have been looking on how to optimize him for damage and combat. My original plan for him was WarBld 5/BsB 4/xx. However, I have notice in some builds that the lion totem barbarian would give him a boost in power and the mountain rage from RoS would help him too. Also I notice that the dungeon crasher variant for fighter would give him a boost in knocking back opponents into the walls for extra damage . So my question is that my original build is optimize or better because I get more maneuvers? Or should I go WarBld 1/Barb 1/ Ftgr 2/WarBld 1/BsB 4/xx, is that better or more optimize? What do you guys think? Thanks for any suggestions.

[Greenish]

I personally like getting maneuvers from the early levels. Pounce and rage are nice for melee characters, certainly, but they aren't quite as necessary for initiators.

Dungeoncrasher is quite a few levels for a single trick. It's a good trick, sure, but still.

[LordBlades]

If you want to rely on charging, lion totem barb helps quite a lot (even more so with whirling frenzy from UA).

Usually, as an initiator you're limited to one attack as part of the maneuver. The White Raven charge maneuvers however allow you a charge, which triggers pounce from ion totem barbarian (bonus points if you also have Leap Attack, Shock Trooper and/or Combat Brute).

[Person_Man]

The primary benefit and reason for spending +1 LA on Goliath/Powerful Build is to gain access to the Knockback feat (also in Races of Stone, and specifically written for the Goliath). It gives you a free Bull Rush whenever you Power Attack, and gives you a large bonus to the opposed check.

This can be optimized in a variety of ways. The two big keys are:

• Shock Trooper (Complete Warrior): Allows you to steer the Bull Rush left and right, knocking enemies into each other and knocking them Prone. Also allows you to shift the To-Hit penalty from Power Attack to an AC penalty, which is less meaningful since you can easily knock enemies away from you (be sure to use a reach weapon).
• Dungeoncrasher (Dungeonscape): A Fighter 6 variant which gives you an extra 8d6 + (3 x Str mod) damage when you Bull Rush an enemy into a wall or solid object.

I would personally not bother with Barbarian. It's a poor class (especially compared to the Warblade). At most, I would take 1 level, and even then only to get access to Rage for entry into certain prestige classes.

See also: Flaming Homer, King of Pong, and increasing size/reach.

[Reynard]

Actually, there are two stages to Dungeoncrasher, and the first bonuses can be picked up at Fighter Level 2. Level 6 is just where the roflstomp triple damage lies.

[ranger557]

The primary benefit and reason for spending +1 LA on Goliath/Powerful Build is to gain access to the Knockback feat (also in Races of Stone, and specifically written for the Goliath). It gives you a free Bull Rush whenever you Power Attack, and gives you a large bonus to the opposed check.

This can be optimized in a variety of ways. The two big keys are:

• Shock Trooper (Complete Warrior): Allows you to steer the Bull Rush left and right, knocking enemies into each other and knocking them Prone. Also allows you to shift the To-Hit penalty from Power Attack to an AC penalty, which is less meaningful since you can easily knock enemies away from you (be sure to use a reach weapon).
• Dungeoncrasher (Dungeonscape): A Fighter 6 variant which gives you an extra 8d6 + (3 x Str mod) damage when you Bull Rush an enemy into a wall or solid object.

I would personally not bother with Barbarian. It's a poor class (especially compared to the Warblade). At most, I would take 1 level, and even then only to get access to Rage for entry into certain prestige classes.

See also: Flaming Homer, King of Pong, and increasing size/reach.

I got to say Person_Man i like your threads, good stuff! I agree that Goliath will be perfect with the Knockback feat, I'm definitely getting it. But Im still wondering whats more optimize?

• One is having more Warblade levels beneficial compare to getting the abilities from the Barbarian and Fighter levels? In that Warblade5/BloodStormB1 is more optimize? Im aiming for Bloodstorm Blade PrC if you can tell, lol.

• However, I was thinking since at level 2 of the Bloodstorm PrC it gives you the ability to treat ranged attacks as melee, so that would definitely benefit from the dungeon crasher ability (just the two lvls) and maybe the barbarian level from Races of Stone that gives me mountain rage and give me more power? Also could get pounce from CC to do full attacks when I charge. Is that worth losing initiator levels from Warblade?

I personally like getting maneuvers from the early levels. Pounce and rage are nice for melee characters, certainly, but they aren't quite as necessary for initiators.

Dungeoncrasher is quite a few levels for a single trick. It's a good trick, sure, but still.

yeah true, but Im still debating on if its worth losing those initiator levels, optimization wise lol.

If you want to rely on charging, lion totem barb helps quite a lot (even more so with whirling frenzy from UA).

Usually, as an initiator you're limited to one attack as part of the maneuver. The White Raven charge maneuvers however allow you a charge, which triggers pounce from ion totem barbarian (bonus points if you also have Leap Attack, Shock Trooper and/or Combat Brute).

I was thinking the same thing for pounce! to do full attack after I leap attack

Actually, there are two stages to Dungeoncrasher, and the first bonuses can be picked up at Fighter Level 2. Level 6 is just where the roflstomp triple damage lies.

Im thinking the first two levels are sufficient in the beginning, maybe I would go further in higher levels lol

[Darrin]

I would personally not bother with Barbarian. It's a poor class (especially compared to the Warblade). At most, I would take 1 level, and even then only to get access to Rage for entry into certain prestige classes.

Most warblades can benefit from a 2-level dip before they take Warblade 4 because it delays your Initiator Level progression just enough to pick up your higher-level stances when you actually get new Warblade stances. The trade-off is you don't get the Warblade's capstone Stance Mastery pre-epic.

Lion Totem Barbarian is a popular 1-level dip because it gets you all-day Pounce without having to rely on a maneuver for it. Rage isn't too shabby, either, unless a lot of your maneuvers rely on Concentration checks.

For the other 1-level dip, I recommend:

Fighter for the +1 BAB, bonus feat, ranged weapon proficiency, and tower shield -> exotic shield swap.

Crusader for the +1 BAB, access to Devoted Spirit (prereqs for Martial Stance -> Aura of Chaos), ranged weapon proficiency, and tower shield -> exotic shield swap.

Wild Defender (Dragon #324), +1 BAB, somewhat similar to Mystic Ranger but gains 1st-level ranger spells at 1st level (Mystic Ranger requires a 2-level dip to get 1st-level spells). Also, Smite Evil 1/day and ranged weapon proficiency.

Cloistered Cleric for Knowledge devotion, bonus feats via domains (Elf = Rapid Shot, Dwarf = Great Fortitude, War = Weapon Focus + Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Darkness = Blind-Fight, Time = Improved Initiative), turn undead to power devotion feats, access to Ruby Knight Vindicator, or help qualify for Master of Nine (Darkness and Time domains).

[Greenish]

For the other 1-level dip, I recommend:

I'm a fan of feat rogue 1-2 with Able Learner, but then again I'm addicted to having skills.

[Darrin]

I'm a fan of feat rogue 1-2 with Able Learner, but then again I'm addicted to having skills.

I forgot about the Sneak Attack Fighter... lets you take Craven and Staggering Strike, which are just pure awesomesauce when flanking. Undo Resistance can be pretty useful at higher levels, too.

[Person_Man]

• One is having more Warblade levels beneficial compare to getting the abilities from the Barbarian and Fighter levels? In that Warblade5/BloodStormB1 is more optimize? Im aiming for Bloodstorm Blade PrC if you can tell, lol.

• However, I was thinking since at level 2 of the Bloodstorm PrC it gives you the ability to treat ranged attacks as melee, so that would definitely benefit from the dungeon crasher ability (just the two lvls) and maybe the barbarian level from Races of Stone that gives me mountain rage and give me more power? Also could get pounce from CC to do full attacks when I charge. Is that worth losing initiator levels from Warblade?

Yeah, Bloodstorm Blade + Knockback is a fun combo. Check out Darrin's King of Pong - it's hilariously awesome. He also suggests some good dips above. I would only differ from his advice slightly, in that since the Bloodstorm Blade can treat thrown weapons as melee attacks, you will rarely need Pounce. And if you do need Pounce or Free Movement, you have easy access to Sudden Leap, White Raven Tactics, Pouncing Charge, Press the Advantage, etc.

What you dip in, if anything, depends on how far your build will actually go. If it's going to be a long running campaign, I would keep the maneuver progression as strong as possible. Warblade 5/Bloodstorm Blade 4/Warblade X or something similar. In the long run, having access to higher level maneuvers and stances will be more powerful, flexible, and fun then most of the things you would get from dipping.

If you're not going above ECL 10ish, then some combination of Cloistered Cleric, Crusader, etc., works fine. Just remember that Knockback runs on Power Attack, and Bloodstorm Blade (thrown weapons) can't use Shock Trooper effectively (which requires a Charge). So try to keep your BAB as close to full as possible and keep your To-Hit reasonably high.

[ranger557]

Hey guys sorry for late response, but been busy last week and electricity was out for a day or two :(, but im back lol.

Most warblades can benefit from a 2-level dip before they take Warblade 4 because it delays your Initiator Level progression just enough to pick up your higher-level stances when you actually get new Warblade stances. The trade-off is you don't get the Warblade's capstone Stance Mastery pre-epic.

Lion Totem Barbarian is a popular 1-level dip because it gets you all-day Pounce without having to rely on a maneuver for it. Rage isn't too shabby, either, unless a lot of your maneuvers rely on Concentration checks.

I'm a fan of feat rogue 1-2 with Able Learner, but then again I'm addicted to having skills.

Yeah, Bloodstorm Blade + Knockback is a fun combo. Check out Darrin's King of Pong - it's hilariously awesome. He also suggests some good dips above. I would only differ from his advice slightly, in that since the Bloodstorm Blade can treat thrown weapons as melee attacks, you will rarely need Pounce. And if you do need Pounce or Free Movement, you have easy access to Sudden Leap, White Raven Tactics, Pouncing Charge, Press the Advantage, etc.

What you dip in, if anything, depends on how far your build will actually go. If it's going to be a long running campaign, I would keep the maneuver progression as strong as possible. Warblade 5/Bloodstorm Blade 4/Warblade X or something similar. In the long run, having access to higher level maneuvers and stances will be more powerful, flexible, and fun then most of the things you would get from dipping.

If you're not going above ECL 10ish, then some combination of Cloistered Cleric, Crusader, etc., works fine. Just remember that Knockback runs on Power Attack, and Bloodstorm Blade (thrown weapons) can't use Shock Trooper effectively (which requires a Charge). So try to keep your BAB as close to full as possible and keep your To-Hit reasonably high.

I agree on delaying for better stances, Darrin, it would definitely give me different abilities and allow for a better and higher level stance. However, I agree more with what Person_Man is saying for long running campaigns because so i can keep my progression strong and since it is going to be a long campaign, like close to lvl 20, then i would be the better choice. Oh but man I want them both so BAD! lol, but we can't have it all right? So Im thinking on going Warblade 5/BsB 4/ XX(other class). I don't know if I want Master thrower or more warblade, but i'll figure that out later. For rogue levels....I don't see my character going to that approach even though those are nice feats to have. Alright thanks for the help guys and HAZA!