[3.5]Unarmed Fighter: Disarm My Hands, Gladiator!

[Rasman]

I'm joining a "Colosseum" type game and, while thinking about what would be an interesting class to play, I've always wanted to make an Unarmed Fighter. Sadly, this is a 3.5 game and not pathfinder, otherwise I'd just use Captain Awesome in my sig.

Here are the general rules for the game.

:::Books Allowed:::
PHB, PHB 2, Complete series, MM (1, 2, 3, 4), EPH, Tome of Battle (TOB), Spell Compendium (check spells with GM), Libris Mortis

Although we CAN ask to do something that isn't currently allowed in the rules, the worst they can do is say no, so I have options outside of these source books, but they're not HIGHLY likely.

Starting Gold, HP and Flaws: 500 gold and up to 2 flaws at first level are allowed.

Flaws Link Given

Abilities are a 36point buy.

Banned Spells/Powers/Maneuvers/Feats

Mage's Disjunction
Wish
Miracle
Rope Trick
Law and Travel Devotion feat in Complete Champion
Spelltouched Feats
Leadership feat
Faith Feats (from Complete Divine)

- for the TOB: the 3rd level Warblade maneuver of Iron Heart Surge is banned

As I stated in my Build Armstrong Thread, the Variant Fighter, Pugilist, is an EXCELLENT choice for an Unarmed fighter, simply for the fact that not only do you get Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat, but as ANOTHER feat, you get Endurance, which is a Prereq for Fist of The Forest.

This is my most likely path, but prioritizing feats is going to be much harder than when I built Armstrong, since he doesn't get a feat every 2 levels from advancement.

I'll gladly take any advice on this that I can take. I have a concept, but I'm not really sure what the most BAMF way to go about it is with 3.5.

[MeeposFire]

If you want powerful you can play a variation of the king of smack.

Basically psywarrior or other psionic character using beast claws. I would reccomend tashalator but secrets of sarlona is not on the list.

One problem you will have is that you do not have access to necklace of natural attacks or the battlefist with your current books. This leaves you normal guantlets which means monks are out. So what is your plan to enchant your fists? psionic classes can help.

[Worira]

And then the gladiator disarmed your hands.


Passersby were amazed by the unusually large amounts of blood.

[Zonugal]

For perhaps an unorthofox build you might enjoy a Scout who uses the Riposte alternate class feature and focuses on achieving unarmed strikes through creating attacks of opportunity (robilar's gambit/karmic strike).

You can create a real ol' fashion martial artist feel by tempting an opponent into attacking and you responding with quick & powerful blows.

[Rasman]

For perhaps an unorthofox build you might enjoy a Scout who uses the Riposte alternate class feature and focuses on achieving unarmed strikes through creating attacks of opportunity (robilar's gambit/karmic strike).

You can create a real ol' fashion martial artist feel by tempting an opponent into attacking and you responding with quick & powerful blows.

Sadly, not allowed Cityscape. Otherwise it sounds nice. Robilar's Gambit sounds interesting for when I'm fighting other Fighter/Melee types, but against a caster, that means little.

And then the gladiator disarmed your hands.

Passersby were amazed by the unusually large amounts of blood.

Nah, I made my Con Check, so they're still there. :D

My thoughts right now are Fighter/Monk2/Fist of the Forest with some Mage Slayer around level 3ish. Gives good Unarmed Progression and Wis and Con to AC, or would it just be more effective to forgo that and wear regular armor?

[MeeposFire]

Do you think that you will be lacking the ability to add enchantments is going to be a problem?

[Zonugal]

I wasn't able to read it anywhere but what level will you be at?

[Rasman]

I wasn't able to read it anywhere but what level will you be at?

starts at level 1, but progression is determined, pretty much, by how many fights I'm in and that's about it, there's not really any question as to "how" I get my levels in PRCs and such, I just get them

Do you think that you will be lacking the ability to add enchantments is going to be a problem?

Nope, I just have to be able to afford them.

[MeeposFire]

starts at level 1, but progression is determined, pretty much, by how many fights I'm in and that's about it, there's not really any question as to "how" I get my levels in PRCs and such, I just get them



Nope, I just have to be able to afford them.

So what are you going to use to enchant your fists? Most of the choices are not allowed because of book choices.

[Zonugal]

Do you have an idea on what type of unarmed fighter you would desire? I only ask because there a level of difference between a grapple and a stunning master.

[Gorgondantess]

unorthofox

Unorthofox... so, then this implies there's an Orthofox for there to be an un? Suddenly I'm struck with an image of an anthropomorphic fox in templar raiment, smiting its enemies with divine might. And I want one.

[Zonugal]

Unorthofox... so, then this implies there's an Orthofox for there to be an un? Suddenly I'm struck with an image of an anthropomorphic fox in templar raiment, smiting its enemies with divine might. And I want one.

It is actually a fox who practices orthodontics.

A master of both stealth and precision-based pain.

[TroubleBrewing]

If you're going for grappling, Black Blood Cultist ftw. Otherwise, KoS is probably your best bet.

[Rasman]

So what are you going to use to enchant your fists? Most of the choices are not allowed because of book choices.

If I can get it, Amulet of Natural Attacks, but more than likely it'll be an Amulet of Mighty Fists, sadly. If I could get a hold of the guy that priced that, I'd LOVE to shake him as hard as I could...

For the most part, I think that optimizing my Unarmed Damage, Size, Grapple and Monk Level.

For the most part, Monk2/Fighter2/Fist of the Forest 3 seems best so far for the first 7 levels. I think the highest anyone is in the game so far is 9th, so it shouldn't be terribly hard to catch up.

GAHHH. I'm really unsure as to what to do with this, there are SO many options...

GAHHH. Changed my mind again, I'm going just STRAIGHT fighter. I'm not worried about the Wis to AC or stuff like that. Although getting pounce would be useful. One level dip into Lion Totem Barbarian or Shape Soulmeld: Sphinx Claws and Open Least Chakra: Hands?

Ah, thought of ANOTHER way to get around the "enchant your unarmed strikes" problem. There's a weapon called a Cestus that is a simple weapon. When you use it, if you have Imp Unarmed Strike, you can use your unarmed strike damage instead. I know where to find it in regards to Pathfinder Resources, does it exist in 3.5?

[Zonugal]

Ah, thought of ANOTHER way to get around the "enchant your unarmed strikes" problem. There's a weapon called a Cestus that is a simple weapon. When you use it, if you have Imp Unarmed Strike, you can use your unarmed strike damage instead. I know where to find it in regards to Pathfinder Resources, does it exist in 3.5?

Oriental Adventures or Sword & Fist might have it.

[Greenish]

For the most part, Monk2/Fighter2/Fist of the Forest 3 seems best so far for the first 7 levels.

FotF requires 4 BAB. I'd probably drop monk for something full BAB, if you're getting IUS from that fighter variant (or even if you aren't).

I'll also note that Endurance isn't a prerequisite for Fist of the Forest, Great Fortitude is.

There's a weapon called a Cestus that is a simple weapon. When you use it, if you have Imp Unarmed Strike, you can use your unarmed strike damage instead. I know where to find it in regards to Pathfinder Resources, does it exist in 3.5?

A&EG has Ward Cestus that works pretty much like that (if my memory serves), though it's an exotic weapon (and 3.0). You could also ask for gauntlets to work like that.

[Master_Rahl22]

The Scorpion Kama from MiC is 6,302 and is a +1 weapon that uses your unarmed damage if it's greater than the normal damage. So you get a weapon that you can actually add enhancements to instead of just +1, +2, etc. and at much cheaper than the Amulet of Mighty Fists.

Definitely consider Superior Unarmed Strike and Snap Kick from ToB. More damage and free attacks are always nice.

[Rasman]

FotF requires 4 BAB. I'd probably drop monk for something full BAB, if you're getting IUS from that fighter variant (or even if you aren't).

I'll also note that Endurance isn't a prerequisite for Fist of the Forest, Great Fortitude is.
A&EG has Ward Cestus that works pretty much like that (if my memory serves), though it's an exotic weapon (and 3.0). You could also ask for gauntlets to work like that.

Ah, you're right on both accounts, thought it was just 3...I blame the ungodly hour I was up at...

The Scorpion Kama from MiC is 6,302 and is a +1 weapon that uses your unarmed damage if it's greater than the normal damage. So you get a weapon that you can actually add enhancements to instead of just +1, +2, etc. and at much cheaper than the Amulet of Mighty Fists.

Definitely consider Superior Unarmed Strike and Snap Kick from ToB. More damage and free attacks are always nice.

Scorpion Kama are a GREAT point, although you can add Enhancements to an Amulet of Mighty Fists just like you can a weapon, although it's even better in Pathfinder since the Amulet doesn't HAVE to have the +1 before getting enhanced.

My only concern is how Scorpion Kama and Greater Mighty Wallop would interact with one another.

[Telonius]

Another option for "enchanting" your fists - levels of Kensai, with your signature weapon being "Unarmed Strike."

[BRC]

[Tootingownhorn]
If your DM is open to homebrew, I cooked up a Brawler class (See sig) that sounds almost perfect for this.
[/tootingownhorn]

[Rasman]

Another option for "enchanting" your fists - levels of Kensai, with your signature weapon being "Unarmed Strike."

Hmm...Kensai...totally forgot about the PRC. Would be TOTALLY worth it JUST for the Wounding Enhancement, which is the big one I'm concerned about other than Ghost Touch.

[Tootingownhorn]
If your DM is open to homebrew, I cooked up a Brawler class (See sig) that sounds almost perfect for this.
[/tootingownhorn]

as PERFECT as it sounds, and it is pretty much Perfect for what I want to do, I can't have Homebrew, it's strictly WotC stuff only.

[Greenish]

Thayan Gladiator also gets enhancements to it natural weapon, as well as other goodies. I don't recall whether it says anything about Unarmed Strikes, and it's not in the allowed sources (it's from Champions of Ruin), though.

[Rasman]

I had a thought for a build up to 6th level since we get two flaws.

Monk2/Fighter2/Lion Totem Barbarian2
1.Imp Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Karmic Strike
2.Combat Reflexes, Evasion (Class Feature, but worth mentioning.)
3.Mage Slayer, Superior Unarmed Strike
4.Pierce Magical Protection
5.(Lion Totem Barbarian) LEVEL FEAT
6.Uncanny Dodge

My only problem is that the alignment restrictions don't allow Monk and Barbarians to multiclass together. There is the Chaos Monk and Raging Monk, but they're from Dragon Mags. I'm not even sure how a Raging Monk would work, I mean, they rage like a Barbarian and it says their rage levels stack with Barbarian levels, but how do you even multiclass that if their alignment restrictions don't allow it?

I guess you could just lose access to the class for the rest of your levels, but I wouldn't dip into Monk after that anyway, so that might not be a loss at all.

[Human Paragon 3]

You could go strait fighter and take Martial Study (Diamond Mind) to get concentration as a class skill for Kensai. Or just go Warblade into Kensai. Just sayin.

[Optimator]

A standard Warblade with Superior Unarmed Strike and maybe another few feats like Imp. Disarm or Stunning Fist or Scorpion's Grasp will give you a very fun and functional character.

[Greenish]

My only problem is that the alignment restrictions don't allow Monk and Barbarians to multiclass together.

You don't particularly need monk. The free feats are okay, and the bigger US dice helps on lower levels, but I'd try to aim for FotF entrance as soon as possible. Barbarian2/fighter2 or something like that, for example.

You also have access to ToB, so I assume you have a personal preference not to use it (and that's okay), but personally I think you should reconsider it. Maneuvers help immensely in bringing unarmed up to bar.

[Rasman]

You don't particularly need monk. The free feats are okay, and the bigger US dice helps on lower levels, but I'd try to aim for FotF entrance as soon as possible. Barbarian2/fighter2 or something like that, for example.

You also have access to ToB, so I assume you have a personal preference not to use it (and that's okay), but personally I think you should reconsider it. Maneuvers help immensely in bringing unarmed up to bar.

you make a good point. ToB is VERY potent and when playing a Martial class and I have access to it, there isn't much reason to NOT take it in place of fighter, except for the loss of feats, but that's not a huge deal, I suppose.

Part of the reason I avoid the thought of Warblade is that I'm playing one already in a PF game. I just don't want the characters to blend like that or just end up playing the same character in a different game.

I think the reason I'm being so Wishy Washy is that I haven't decided what I want the character to do. I keep looking at all these ideas and going "hey, that'd be neat" and changing my mind. So now to focus.

[Greenish]

Part of the reason I avoid the thought of Warblade is that I'm playing one already in a PF game.

So make this one a crusader, or a swordsage, they have brawly enough maneuvers too.

Might also consider a dip to Bloodclaw Master PrC. Unarmed Strikes are Tiger Claw weapons, after all.

[Rasman]

Typically, you want to be good at 3 things, if you only focus on one and you run into something that is immune to it, you die.

So the 3 he is good at:
Grappling
Attacks of Opportunity
Locking Down Casters

Grappling is pretty straight forward. Imp Unarmed Strike and Improved Grapple. I can gain Imp Unarmed Strike though the Pugilist Fighter since it was approved and take Improved Grapple from there. From there, the easiest way to improve this is though Size increases. Potions of Enlarge Person are cheap enough and will make him large sized. Using ToB, Crushing Weight of the Mountain, from Stone Dragon, allows him to constrict his opponent with grapple checks and it requires a Stone Dragon Maneuver, so two feat investment. The alternate Option is Kraken Mantle Soulmeld and Open Lesser Chakra: Arms, which ALSO gives the constrict ability, but is from a non-allowed Source Book. Earth’s Embrace is a nice grappler feat since no one likes turning down an extra 1d12 on damage and your only limitations are that you have to pin your opponent and you can't move, which you don't want to anyway.

If you can gain access to the Sandstorm source book, take Scorpion's Grasp. Every time you land an Unarmed Strike, you get a free grapple check. Free things are Free and this is an amazing grappler feat if you can take it.

So, Grappling Feats are: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Martial Training: Stone Dragon Maneuver, Martial Stance: Crushing Weight of the Mountain, Earth’s Embrace.

Attacks of Opportunity are a little harder because you have to force your opponent into provoking them and it's different based on if you're fighting a Caster or Melee Type. Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit are the two most praise worthy feats for this. Take a -4 to AC, when an enemy strikes you in combat, you gain an Attack of Opportunity. Karmic Strike requires Dex 13, Dodge and Combat Expertise. Not bad feats, but kind of counter intuitive. Robilar's Gambit requires a BAB of +12 and Combat Reflexes, which you would take anyway. If you could only switch the BAB +12 with the Dex 13, this would be the most overpowered feat ever. Choosing between the two is determined by starting level, when you want the ability and if you're willing to make the feat investment for Karmic Strike. Defensive Sweep is an EXCELLENT feat to take for High Level games, if your opponent doesn't move when standing next to you, they provoke. Great for those melee types or a Wizard that tries using a Metamagiced spell on you. Evasive Reflexes is an interesting thought for a Opportunist, forgo an AoO to take a 5' step. At higher levels or with creatures that have multiple attacks, this can be a COMPLETE shut out of attacks on you, assuming they don't have reach, and it counts as Combat Reflexes in terms of prereqs for other feats and PRCs. Hold the Line is a borderline feat that is really only useful if you find yourself being charged frequently. Deft Opportunist is a simple feat that gives a +4 to AoOs. You'll be making a lot of those, so if you're ever unsure about what to take, strongly consider this. Improved Trip is one of those feats that's an AoO feat without directly being an AoO feat. In short, trip your opponent, if successful they provoke an attack while standing up, crawling away, doing lots of things and they take an -4 to AC while prone, awesome if you can make it fit, but not for everyone.

Attack of Opportunity Feats: Karmic Strike, Dodge*, Combat Expertise* (Only if used as Prereqs for Karmic Strike*), Robilar's Gambit, Combat Reflexes, Defensive Sweep, Evasive Reflexes, Hold the Line, Deft Opportunist, Improved Trip (Only/Especially if you take the Karmic Strike Chain, but is still good stand alone).

Being Anti-Caster is hard when you aren't a caster yourself. One of the failing points of 3.5 is that no purely melee class is powerful enough to take on a caster of equal CR. The Warblade and Tome of Battle classes may have come the closest to this, but not quite. There are feats to help you deal with casters and give you a fighting chance though. Mage Slayer, If you threaten a spell caster, they can not cast defensively. This is a HUGE start, especially if you carry a reach weapon or gain size increases that give reach as well. Along with Mage Slayer, you can take Pierce Magical Protections which allows you to take down defenses like Mage Armor and Shield, pretty much any Magical Enhancement that gives a bonus to Armor Class. If you're willing to take Blind-Fight as a feat as well, consider Pierce Magical Concealment which states that you ignore miss chance due to spells like Blur, Darkness, Invisibility, Obscuring Mist and you can't miss when they cast Mirror Image because you know which ones are the fakes. Improved Trip can be considered Anti-Caster as well as well as Improved Disarm and Improved Grapple. Casters aren't going to want to cast at you while laying at your feat, especially if you have Mage Slayer. That Wizard doesn't carry that staff so he can hit you with it, not physically anyway, if he wants to use it, he'll have to pick it up with a fist in his face. Putting a Wizard in a headlock is a great way to discourage him from casting a spell on you, also an effective way to break his neck.

Anti-Caster Feats: Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Protections, Blind-Fight and Pierce Magical Concealment, Improve Trip, Improved Disarm and Improved Grapple.

Any other thoughts on highly effect feats in these catagories?

[The Rabbler]

have you considered a fistbear bearfist build?

the last one I built was spirit lion totem barb 5/fist of the forest 3/deepwarden 2/bear warrior 10

rage turns you into a bear. fist of the forest turns you into a kung-fu bear. The combo of fist of the forest and deepwarden gives you con to AC twice. It makes you a perfectly viable unarmed fighter even when naked. Also, you can't be disarmed when all you use is claws, bites, and unarmed strikes.

this requires you to be a dwarf (bonus points for dragonborn earth dwarf). I didn't have a problem with this, but you might.