Is there such a thing as a "no-magic" fantasy RPG?

[TroubleBrewing]

Just what the title asks. I've been trying to run a low-magic D&D game for some time now, but it just doesn't work. You can only face so many vermin, animals, dire animals, and certain magical beasts before you just give up. Is there a system that effectively models the typical fantasy pseudo-medieval setting we all know and love, but WITHOUT all the wizards, magic, and other sundry supernatural effects?

[Totally Guy]

Mouse Guard.

Well for a fantasy society of mice.

[Nero24200]

The closest I've seen is Iron Heroes - Which is pretty much just 3.5 without magic (with the exception of 1 optional casting class).

[MeeposFire]

You could do a 4e D&D game and avoid the magical classes.

You could then use the monsters found within which can easily be made non-magical if you like (such as the goblin hexer. instead of blasting you with magic and blinding you the hexer could throw sand into your eyes to blind you). Still I have a feeling this will not be what you are looking for.

[The Rose Dragon]

I'm trying to figure out how to create fantasy without magic, and all I get is either alternate history or low-magic.

[Eldan]

You start with a different world, and populate it with creatures not occuring on Earth.

However, you might end up with something that's closer to Science Fiction, however with a few unlikely premises such as "What if there were humans on another planet" and "What if there were several tool using, intelligent, civilized anthropoid species on the same planet who didn't kill each other off during the stone age?"

[Rixx]

True20 Fantasy at SR0 is no-magic fantasy.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

D&D with no magic, dont use any classes or monsters that have spell lists or spell like abilities: Your main enemies are other humanoids that want to die on your sword.

[kamikasei]

Is there a system that effectively models the typical fantasy pseudo-medieval setting we all know and love, but WITHOUT all the wizards, magic, and other sundry supernatural effects?

Figure out exactly what you want that to be (it sounds pretty odd to me; with nothing supernatural, what's the fantasy element?), then run it in something rules-light. Only include what you want to have, and no concerns about the system being balanced around the availability of magic.

[Aidan305]

Terry Pratchett would say yes. I'd be inclined to agree with him. Look at some of the later Discworld books. They're undoubtedly fantasy, but you could quite easily take the small amounts of magic away and still be left with fantasy. In a lecture he recently gave at Trinity College Dublin he discussed what fantasy is and isn't. It might be worth going and having a look.

[CodeRed]

The closest I've seen is Iron Heroes - Which is pretty much just 3.5 without magic (with the exception of 1 optional casting class).

This. Iron Heroes is very fun hack and slash with no magic.

[TroubleBrewing]

Along the same lines, is there a neolithic/prehistoric game setting out there? I know of Frostburn, which I've used before, but is there anything more specific?

[hamlet]

There are only a few, as far as I know.

Iron Heroes, as mentioned.

7th Sea can be done without magic, but it sorta defaults to some pretty nifty magic rules. Much lower in tone than D&D.

Alternity, which is a sort of proto-D20 universal-ish sort of system, can do it if you can get over the learning curve. Just avoid using FX and Psionics and set the tech level to something like PL3 or whatever, and there you go. It'd be intensive for the DM to run since there's not really an inherent Monster Manual, and the system sort of defaults to a space opera type setting, but it's very doable.

Harn. That is all.

I think Pendragon could fit the mold, if you can find a copy for less than a mortgage payment.

Believe it or not, the new hackmaster game, just leave out the caster classes and you're off to the races.

Savage World can do it.

D20 modern can do it as well. I think it'd be great to run a fantasy game using D20 modern rules. Never worked up the fortitude to start it, though.

Fate.

Fudge.

There are others I know I'm forgetting.

EDIT: Neolithic/Prehistoric? Errrrm . . . Dunno. Honestly, that one stumps me. Would be interested if you ever found one.

[Morty]

Riddle of Steel could work - it's fantasy, but non-humans, monsters and sorcery are rare, so it's very easy to run a game where they're only in the background without appearing onscreen.

[The Rose Dragon]

Riddle of Steel could work - it's fantasy, but non-humans, monsters and sorcery are rare, so it's very easy to run a game where they're only in the background without appearing onscreen.

Of course, since the company that published the game is no longer active, finding a copy is a legendary feat for some of us (I, for one, still haven't found one). They don't sell .pdfs either.

So, if you do in fact find a copy, I will envy you forever and ever.

[big teej]

if I may make a reading suggestion

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159270

hope that's helpful

[valadil]

A Song of Ice and Fire. The book mentions magic, but it's hardly defined and not for PCs. I ran a game of it a couple years ago. The closest thing to magic was some alchemy. The closest thing to supernatural beasts was House Greyjoy.

[The Rose Dragon]

A Song of Ice and Fire. The book mentions magic, but it's hardly defined and not for PCs. I ran a game of it a couple years ago. The closest thing to magic was some alchemy. The closest thing to supernatural beasts was House Greyjoy.

The question is, of course, which one.

[bokodasu]

Pendragon! Thank you, it has been driving me nuts trying to remember what that game was. Anyway, yes, it's definitely a no-magic system; I didn't realize they weren't making it any more. Hey, you can get the pdf from drivethrurpg, if you're into that, I didn't really care for it. (But I like my fantasy high-magic.) Anyway, Fudge, GURPS, any of the generic ones... or D&D with human(oid) opponents only.

As to stone age stuff, check out the "Lost Prehistorica" 3.5 setting (you can get the pdf from drivethrurpg.com); they also have a bunch of prehistoric monster manuals. (Um, that's prehistoric monsters, not prehistoric manuals.)

No I don't work for that website or anything - it's just always my first resource when looking for obscure or out-of-print stuff. Most companies not named Wizards of the Coast would rather have a tiny income from selling old .pdfs than not.

[Another_Poet]

Grey, I think it depends on what you mean.

Can your setting still have mythological beasts?

Can your setting have martial arts moves that stretch what's really possible?

If the answer to either of the above questions is "yes" I think you could take whatever system you are already familiar with and build the setting to work with it.

[valadil]

The question is, of course, which one.

Sorry I left that out. I was using the d20 one. Haven't tried any others, but they should support the same low magic setting just as well.

[Tyndmyr]

I'm trying to figure out how to create fantasy without magic, and all I get is either alternate history or low-magic.

Well, there's 7th Sea. It has magic, technically. However, it is extremely specific and limited magic. If someone with magic wants to kill you, he's almost certainly going to do it with a sword. There will be no lightening bolt.

It's fairly historical for a given era...sort of. The deeper you get into the metaplot, the more differences become apparent, and the whole thing is very much in a dramatic, swashbuckling style. It works very well for a party in which nobody is magic, and can easily never encounter magic.

[Hazzardevil]

In my opinoin the closest you can get is that magic does exist but it is incredibly volatile and causese random phenonom and thigns like dragons still exist.

You are left with:
A world with no mages,
Still a large amount of opponents left in the monster manual
and it's not too hard to have a storyline.

[true_shinken]

Wow, no mention of GURPS yet?
The 2nd edition basic book even has an adventure of the 'fantasy without magic' feel.

[kyoryu]

The first thing is to define "magic." Many things that we consider to be magic could be justified in some way as natural phenomenon. Heck, look at Dragonriders of Pern, which was somewhere between fantasy and sci-fi, had no magic, and still had friggin' dragons.

As far as enemies - humans are good ones, and can be incredibly diverse. History shows us a ton of human villains in various stripes - from gangs of various sorts, to serial killers, to insane doctors, to evil overlords.

The bigger problem is the fact that most fantasy games assume some level of healing so that people can continue playing after swordfights, and most of their injury systems are rationalized around the existence of healing. A system to handle fantasy without magic would have to be designed so that combat "damage" was rationalized in a way that allowed for continuing adventures, and not spending 90% of your time in the hospital.

[Knaight]

Fudge can do this easily, and can also do neolithic. It happens to be a free system on top of that.

GURPS is an obvious answer.

Burning Wheel is pretty much perfect for grittier RPGs, there is magic but it can be avoided extremely easily. It also has a very fun combat system, which sounds as if it is a priority.

If you want to have higher capabilities in martial arts, you can't go wrong with Qin: The Warring States. Its built to allow historical Chinese campaigns, wuxia without magic, and wuxia with magic. It works best on the wuxia end of the scale.

There is also Pendragon, though that is less low fantasy and more very specific interpretations of Arthurian myth.

If you appreciate really, really rules light systems that can mimic classes, I can PM you my homebrew Titled. Its been tested, works beautifully, and goes over well with people who don't want heavy mechanics.

[Shpadoinkle]

There is (or was, at least) a Lord of the Rings PnP game. I saw it at a bookstore once. Considering how rare magic is in LotR, some very minor modifications could make it fit.

[Lord Vampyre]

If there isn't "any" magic, then it isn't fantasy. Even a low magic setting still has magic. Yes, it is possible to run a fantasy campaign where none of the players have the ability to use magic, or even run into anything magical during the campaign.

But if there isn't any magic, then all you really have is an alternate world. It tends to be closer to sci-fi, than fantasy. Although many would argue that fantasy has a distictly more medieval feel, while science fiction is suppose to be more futuristic.

There are definitely better systems to use when running a low magic campaign. If I were you, I would look up the Warhammer Fantasy RPG. There is magic in the game, but it is extremely easy to toss out.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Just what the title asks. I've been trying to run a low-magic D&D game for some time now, but it just doesn't work. You can only face so many vermin, animals, dire animals, and certain magical beasts before you just give up. Is there a system that effectively models the typical fantasy pseudo-medieval setting we all know and love, but WITHOUT all the wizards, magic, and other sundry supernatural effects?

Yeah... it's called "set it in the world of a nonmagical novel series" my favorite is ranger's apprentice, redwall's good too, but there's an issue with races and some classes, luckily, I've got that covered.

[hamishspence]

There is (or was, at least) a Lord of the Rings PnP game. I saw it at a bookstore once. Considering how rare magic is in LotR, some very minor modifications could make it fit.

There's been more than one- there was one published by Iron Crown Enterprises,

and much later, after the movies started coming out, there was one licenced by Peter Jackson- which I think used pics from the movies in the books.