9th lvl spells by 15th class level?

[Black_Zawisza]

Is there a way to get arcane OR divine spells with 15th level in a single class?

Also, an unrelated question: if you have casting from two different classes that are keyed off the same ability, do you get bonus spells for each one?

[gbprime]

Yes. Wizard to lvl 5, take Spontaneous Divination alt class feature (Complete Champion). This (and a permissive DM) qualifies you for Ultimate Magus and all your caster level increases go to wizard alone. You gain 17 levels of casting in 10 levels.

You hit 6th level spells at 9, 7th level at 10, 8th level at 11, and 9th level spells at level 13. By level 15, you're a 22nd level wizard with a caster level of 26.

[Aharon]

Yes, you can get 9th level spells before 16th level.

One way is to use one of the heightening tricks (like DMM heighten) to heighten a spell to 9th level, and a Domain Icon (Faith of Eberron, 10000 gp).

Yes, you get bonus spells for both classes.

I'll probably have been swordsage'd.

@gbprime
He specifically asked for advancement in a single class. So you didn't swordsage me

[Matamane]

Ur-Priest does it

[Jarian]

Dragonwrought Loredrake kobold sorcerer with the Greater Draconic Rite of passage. 9th level spells at level 15.

[Keld Denar]

Ur-Priest. You can take your first level at 6, and you get 9th level spells by Ur-Priest9, which is ECL14.

Shadowcraft Mages using Earth Spell shanananananananananananigans can get 9th level spells by like, ECL11-13 or so, depending on how many spell level reducers you apply. Not access to ALL 9s, just Evocations and Conjouration(Summoning) and Conjouration(Creation) spells.

[Jarian]

What part of "single class" do people not get?

[Aspenor]

Yes. Wizard to lvl 5, take Spontaneous Divination alt class feature (Complete Champion). This (and a permissive DM) qualifies you for Ultimate Magus and all your caster level increases go to wizard alone. You gain 17 levels of casting in 10 levels. You hit So by level 15, you're a 22nd level caster.

This doesn't work. A wizard, even with Spontaneous Divination, is a prepared casting class, not a spontaneous casting class. Spontaneous divination does not suddenly change a prepared class to a spontaneous class. You would only get the increases from UM in the prepared casting class. It would also become an 8/10 casting class, because you don't have a lower level casting class.

A Beholder Mage can pull it off by level 11 or 12, but that requires some stinky cheese in order to enter.

[Aharon]

@Black_Zawisza
You might want to consider changing the title so that it includes your "Single Class" requirement. That way, you won't have to sort out all the proposals based on PrCs.

[Tyndmyr]

Yes. Wizard to lvl 5, take Spontaneous Divination alt class feature (Complete Champion). This (and a permissive DM) qualifies you for Ultimate Magus and all your caster level increases go to wizard alone. You gain 17 levels of casting in 10 levels.

You hit 6th level spells at 9, 7th level at 10, 8th level at 11, and 9th level spells at level 13. By level 15, you're a 22nd level wizard with a caster level of 26.

I wonder how well this would work out with Sublime Chord and the feat that lets you prepare a spell as a spont caster? Some challenges, but might be possible....



Oh, and no, it's not going to happen as single classed, no PrCs. There is no base class that provides spells that rapidly except for Beholder Mage, which is a monster class anyhow, and incredibly cheesy/broken.

You could utilize the standard dragonwrought kobold with templates shenanigans, but anywhere that you're stuck with a single class, that's probably not going to be allowed.

[gbprime]

This doesn't work. A wizard, even with Spontaneous Divination, is a prepared casting class, not a spontaneous casting class. Spontaneous divination does not suddenly change a prepared class to a spontaneous class. You would only get the increases from UM in the prepared casting class.

But the ability description for Spontaneous Divination reads

You can spontaneously cast any spell of the divination school by sacrificing a prepared spell of equal or greater level.

Yes, you have prepared spells, but it specifically reads "you can spontaneously cast". Ergo, you are a spontaneous caster.

It's splitting hairs, RAW versus RAI. Don't plan your character around it before discussing it with your DM first. "No" is a perfectly acceptable answer.

[Psyren]

Isn't there that one race that gets sorcerer casting = ECL, that can take sorcerer levels to double-dip?

[Keld Denar]

Phaerim, IIRC.

[Greenish]

I wonder how well this would work out with Sublime Chord and the feat that lets you prepare a spell as a spont caster? Some challenges, but might be possible....

UM requires the prepared side to specifically prepare spells from a spellbook, so Arcane Preparation won't work.

[gbprime]

Isn't there that one race that gets sorcerer casting = ECL, that can take sorcerer levels to double-dip?

There's Sylph, from MM2, which casts as a sorcerer of HD + 4. I'm pretty sure they MEANT "racial HD + 4", but that's not what it says. RAW again.

According to the 3.5e update, it's LA is 5. So you're 8th level for a 3 HD Fey that casts as a 7th sorcerer. Add 5 levels of sorcerer, and you've just added 10 caster levels... for a total of 17 at 13th level. Not quite enough for the OP, but nifty nonetheless.

Deathly short on HP, though... might have to pull a Minor Shapeshift feat just to survive...

[Psyren]

Phaerim, IIRC.

Yeah, that's the one! So be a Phaerimm sorcerer. Bam, single class, early 9ths.

EDIT: Phaerimm was what I was thinking of, would Sylph work too? Not familiar with them for this kind of TO.

[Aharon]

Phaerimm just has sorcerer levels and its innate spellcasting stack, like dragons. It would work in the same way as for the Sylph, Phaerimm have a similarly high LA.

It would work for Sylph, but the update booklet gave them a LA of +5, so while you'll techically have 9th level spells by level 11 (3HD +sorcerer 11+4), you'll be an ECL 16 character by that time.

Edit to clarify:
Here are the ability descriptions for Sylph and Phaerimm.
Phaerimm:
Spells: A phaerimm casts arcane spells as a sorcerer (CL equals phaerimm's character level). Phaerimms use their sorcerer spells as if they were spell-like abilities, so they require no verbal, somatic or material components.
Phaerimm Characters
A phaerimm's favored class is sorcerer. Its sorcerer levels stack with its base spellcasting ability for the purpose of determining spells known, spells per day, and other effects dependent on caster level.[...]
Sylph:
Spells: A sylph can cast arcane spells
as a sorcerer. Caster level = sylph’s Hit
Dice + 4

[Aspenor]

But the ability description for Spontaneous Divination reads



Yes, you have prepared spells, but it specifically reads "you can spontaneously cast". Ergo, you are a spontaneous caster.

It's splitting hairs, RAW versus RAI. Don't plan your character around it before discussing it with your DM first. "No" is a perfectly acceptable answer.

A wizard is a prepared spellcaster even if they can spontaneously cast certain spells. The ability to spontaneously cast divination spells does not change that fact. The cleric or druid are prepared casting classes despite being able to spontaneously cast certain spells as well. This is exemplified in Unearthed Arcana, under "Spontaneous Divine Casters." It specifies that under the normal rules, Clerics and Druids are not spontaneous casters despite being able to spontaneously convert certain spells.

Due to this, it is RAW that "Spontaneous Casting" does not necessarily make a class a "Spontaneous Casting class." A spontaneous casting class casts purely spontaneously, not partially.

By RAW, Spontaneous Divination does not make a wizard become a spontaneous caster.

In this case, the wizard with Spontaneous Divination meets the requirements to enter UM, so he may. However, he does not have a spontaneous casting class and as such only enjoys the caster level increases in prepared casting (and doesn't get anything from the boost to the lower level).

Isn't there that one race that gets sorcerer casting = ECL, that can take sorcerer levels to double-dip?

Phaerimm, I think that'd work, yes.

[Black_Zawisza]

Sorry, I should clarify, it all needs to be in a single class, and it MUST be an actual class feature.

[Tengu_temp]

Yes. Wizard to lvl 5, take Spontaneous Divination alt class feature (Complete Champion). This (and a permissive DM) qualifies you for Ultimate Magus and all your caster level increases go to wizard alone. You gain 17 levels of casting in 10 levels.

You hit 6th level spells at 9, 7th level at 10, 8th level at 11, and 9th level spells at level 13. By level 15, you're a 22nd level wizard with a caster level of 26.

That's an obvious exploit and not intended to work that way, even if it should work RAW. But if you play with RAW worshippers, you probably should look for a different group.

[Aspenor]

That's an obvious exploit and not intended to work that way, even if it should work RAW. But if you play with RAW worshippers, you probably should look for a different group.

It doesn't work that way by RAW, so there's nothing to worry about.

[gbprime]

The cleric or druid are prepared casting classes despite being able to spontaneously cast certain spells as well.

Hmm. Well stated. You've officially talked me down from that position.

[woodenbandman]

Phaerimm doesn't work. No way. It says caster level is equal to its Character level, so you have a caster level equal to your ECL, and it also says that sorceror levels stack with its BASE CASTING, but it makes no mention about said base casting increasing with your HD.

[Last Laugh]

It doesn't work that way by RAW, so there's nothing to worry about.

Opinions seem to differ, I personally would never try to play a wizard5/UM 10 in a game.

I don't think there is a single base class that gets 9ths before level 15, besides the example kobold sorc builds.

Edit: I don't mean to sound mean. That argument was the best one I've seen for Wizard not qualifying for Ultimate Magus. I agree wholeheartedly.

[Aharon]

@Woodenbandman
It's self-referential. Its base-casting gets better as you level. When you're a sorcerer level one, your base spellcaster level is equal to your character level, which is one. This then stacks with your one level, making you CL2.

It is very likely that this is not RAI, as the accompanying table has seperate CL's listed for the different age categories, but RAW, it works.

[Tyndmyr]

Sorry, I should clarify, it all needs to be in a single class, and it MUST be an actual class feature.

That's not a thing. There is no class feature that says "Hey, your base class suddenly gets 9th level spells ridiculously early".

You've got to play shenanigans with combos to pull it off.

Edit: The exception is, again, Beholder Mage, where you get a stupid fast progression. But you have to be a Beholder to do so.

[Aharon]

@Tyndmyr
I think he meant the casting should be class-feature derived, not race derived (as is the case for Sylph and, partially, for Phaerimm).

[Tyndmyr]

I'm aware. There is no base class that grants 9th level spells at level 15 without regard to race.

[Darrin]

A Beguiler 15 using a combination of Versatile Spell, Sanctum Spell, Earth Spell, or Improved Krau Sigil can cast 9th level spells. Technically, they're 7th level spells that have been heightened to 9th level spells.

If the Beguiler uses some combination of the three, he can cast what is effectively a 10th level spell. He can then take the Extra Slot feat at ECL 15 and give himself a 9th-level spell slot. Since a Beguiler knows all of the spells on his spell list once he can cast them, he can cast 9th-level spells from that slot.

Actually, if he uses all four, he may be able to pull this off at ECL 12.

[Tyndmyr]

Or, more usefully, he takes two and extra slot twice.

However, it's not gaining it as a class feature, it's gaining it via feats.