[3.X] Ninja without Ninja

[Person_Man]

A friend of mine wants to play a Ninja. As we all know, the actual Ninja in Complete Adventurer sucks rocks. Swordsage makes an excellent Ninja, but the player in question does not want to learn Tome of Battle, and in general does not want a "complex" class. Rogue would work ok, but again the player doesn't want to deal with the hassle of wands, and thus would have a hard time keeping up with the more veteran players in the group.

So I think I'm just going to homebrew something. But I'm also open to RAW and RAWish builds.

The question for the forum is, what Skills and abilities should a Ninja have? The goal is for them to be simple, fun, and powerful enough to keep them in Tier 3ish. All books and homebrew are on the table.

Current List:

• Some form of bonus damage. Which form is up for debate.
• Evasion.
• Uncanny Dodge.
• 8 Skill Points per level. Rogue Skill list. Various Skill bonuses.
• Some form of Invisibility.
• Fast Movement.
• ?

UPDATE: I've homebrewed a solution. You can view it here. Any and all commentary would be welcome, and if it's regarding my homebrew work, should probably be on that thread.

[Greenish]

Depending on what he thinks ninjas are, HiPS might be better than invisibility. Also less vulnerable to true seeing and it's ilk.

[Amphetryon]

I take it Factotum is too complex for the player's taste? Otherwise, it seems like it'd work just fine as a Ninja without Ninja.

[unosarta]

If all books are on the table, then ToB might be a good idea. Depending on the level, he could have an item of invisibility (especially if you are the DM and trying to help him). Shadow Hand/Setting Sun focused Swordsage can be really fun.

[true_shinken]

A highly optimized Rokugan Ninja/Ninja Spy or Rokugan Ninja/Shadowdancer should work.

[Greenish]

The PF's upcoming Ultimate Combat has an adaption of the (PF) rogue, which by the Playtest document looks decent. Less options than a swordsage, more than non-UMD rogue.

[Starbuck_II]

A friend of mine wants to play a Ninja. As we all know, the actual Ninja in Complete Adventurer sucks rocks. Swordsage makes an excellent Ninja, but the player in question does not want to learn Tome of Battle, and in general does not want a "complex" class. Rogue would work ok, but again the player doesn't want to deal with the hassle of wands, and thus would have a hard time keeping up with the more veteran players in the group.

So I think I'm just going to homebrew something. But I'm also open to RAW and RAWish builds.

The question for the forum is, what Skills and abilities should a Ninja have? The goal is for them to be simple, fun, and powerful enough to keep them in Tier 3ish. All books and homebrew are on the table.

Current List:

• Some form of bonus damage. Which form is up for debate.
• Evasion.
• Uncanny Dodge.
• 8 Skill Points per level. Rogue Skill list. Various Skill bonuses.
• Some form of Invisibility.
• Fast Movement.
• ?

Why not take CA Ninja: give Sneak attack and take away Sudden Strike.
Now make the Ki point per encounter similar to Tome of Battle recovery method.
Add Evasion as a Immediate action ki power at 2nd level. When reaches 11th level, it is always on like CA Ninja but gets a +2 bonus to saves when using reflex.
Bam:
You now have (greater) invisibility, sneak attack, decent skill points, evasion, etc.

[Psyren]

I don't think a Ninja should have 8 SP per level. A rogue's high skill count is a mechanical representation of being a jack of all trades. Ninjas, by contrast are focused on two things - infiltration and killing. The combat focus and training means they have less inclination for broad fields of study - for instance, I wouldn't expect a Ninja to have Perform (they are not showy by their very nature, orange jumpsuits notwithstanding.) They also almost universally have some kind of mystic ability that an ordinary thief would lack, and this can cover for their reduced skill list.

As for how I would build a Ninja, I would take the Psychic Rogue as a base - like Monks, Ninja abilities (ki) fit psionics exceedingly well. I would give them the Lurk power progression, then take the Lurk Augments list (mixing in Mind's Eye augments where desired) and fluff them as "jutsus." I would also roll in the CAdv Ninja's AC bonus, except instead of Wis to AC, I'd give them Int to AC - their defensive ability comes more from analysis than intuition.

Psionics covers for nearly all the abilities Ninja have in fiction, and its silent/motionless activation fits their stealth focus very well.

[Telonius]

Sorts of things I think of when I think of ninjas...

- Excellent stealth skills
- Good with weird/varied weapons and "kung fu"
- Good at disguising their identity
- Very acrobatic, agile, and quick
- Not particularly "magical"
- Dislike of pirates
- Lightly armored or unarmored
- Striking suddenly for great effect
- Assassins

Yeah, Swordsage would fit just about everything there. But if that's off the table, here are some Classes/PrC's that can emulate various pieces of that:

Monk (for unarmed fighting, weird weapons, fast movement, and stealthy skills)
Rogue (for stealthy skills and striking suddenly)
Spymaster (for sneaky aspects and disguising identity)
Master of Masks (for disguise theme and proficiency in everything)
Assassin (for death attacks, fluff)
Shadowdancer (for "fading into the shadows")

You might be able to cobble together some sort of a build out of those elements.

[dextercorvia]

How about Urban Ranger, swapping the Ranger Spell list for the Assassin spells, and doing 1 for one trades on certain skills like Cityscape does.

Fast Movement can be had for a feat. You get Evasion and HiPS.

[Eldan]

Rogue->Assassin, maybe? Simple, but should do most of what you need. Just skip the alignment requirement. Just let him stick to a small handful of spells.

[Quietus]

Rogue->Assassin, maybe? Simple, but should do most of what you need. Just skip the alignment requirement. Just let him stick to a small handful of spells.

That's pretty much what I was thinking. Simple, straightforward, easy to play, with spells to handle the varied tricks bit.

[Essence_of_War]

Person_Man,

Are you starting them at first level or higher level? That is to say, does the build have to be playable throughout or only after the point at which they're jumping in.

A few ideas I've had:
I like the idea someone else suggested about int to AC. The invisible blade has this as a class feature, something like:

Swashbuckler 3/ Rogue4/Invisible Blade X

can nab:
Evasion
Uncanny Dodge
Trapfinding
Weapon Finesse (very ninja-esque)
Insightful Strike (as above)
Unfettered Defense
Sneak Attack (def make him take daring outlaw!)
a curious feint mechanic
a buttload of skill points. (They'll have to focus them a little more than a straight rogue, but this will give him incentive to focus on the archetypal ninja skills like stealth perception etc)
Solid BAB, good

Couple of Problems:
Invisible Blade is sort of godawful as written. The entry feats make no sense, the bluff ability is dubious (but potentially synergistic with creating a distraction to hide) the unfettered defense only scales up to class level, and it only gives dagger sneak attack. A straight forward workaround would be to cap unfettered defense with character level rather than class level, replace the current entry feats with "weapon focus in a melee weapon" and swap dagger sneak attack to "Sneak Attack with your weapon focus weapon". You still need a nontrivial feat/skill commitment to get in, but it isn't as odious.

This could work, but it makes for a totally "mundane" ninja. Has he expressed an opinion on the "mundane" vs. magical abilities?

[Pechvarry]

I always push for simply fixing the complete adventurer Ninja.

What it has going for it:
-a lot of features (like monk), but because they're powered by a ki pool, they're all allowed to be powerful features.
-Enough extra damage.
-Invisibility and such ninja-feeling tricks.

Things to change:
-More Ki points (I use Wisdom + class level + 1/4th other classes)
-Make Ki Dodge Greater Ki Dodge from the start, and make it an immediate action.
-Make Ghost Strike a passive effect instead of needing activated.
-Add a short range teleport (probably as a move action) in the mid levels (probably between 8 and 13, inclusive).
-Add a Fog Cloud effect (Smoke Bomb) and an Air Walk ability (or a swift flight).

[HeadlessMermaid]

For Ninja flavor, I like very much the Ninja Spy PrC, from Oriental Adventures. It's a 10 level class (entry at lvl 8), which gives several exotic weapon proficiencies from an appropriate list, slow fall, improved evasion, a big boost to Balance, Climb, Jump and Tumble (+20 eventually, competence), HiPS (very important!), half Sneak Attack Progression, Alter Self at will (Su), Slippery Mind, poison immunity and Abundant Step.

From the Complete Adventurer Ninja, I only like Ghost Step/Strike/Mind/Walk. Though I'd prefer them without the ki pool mechanics.

[Essence_of_War]

Here's another neat idea, there is a really neat "Esper Knight" class on the forums that uses the Incarnum essentia mechanic to fuel all kinds of cool abilities:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169532

It is a really neat idea, you could consider a rebuild of the CA Ninja that did something like this. Maybe I'll think about that while I'm bored in meetings today

Edit: Just to clarify, I'm not saying copy-pasta the class, but I like the feel of the essentia reallocation to fuel the Ninja abilities.

[Thiyr]

I'll toss in the Invisible Fist monk ACF from Exemplars of Evil. Two level dip for those rogues among us for an immediate action invisibility for one round (status, not spell) once every three rounds, or 9 levels for the same deal with blink, as per spell, with duration equal to wis mod. Sure, you lose evasion and improved evasion, but honestly? Seems like a good trade to me. Well, the first one seems like a good trade, at least.

[Ruinix]

Rogue->Assassin, maybe? Simple, but should do most of what you need. Just skip the alignment requirement. Just let him stick to a small handful of spells.

avenger, from

Spoiler

Show

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a

is the "good" assasin.

ninja should be like that plus master of masks.

[Psyren]

avenger, from

Spoiler

Show

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a

is the "good" assasin.

Also, Slayer of Domiel from BoED

[Person_Man]

Thanks for the many replies. Feedback:

Stuff I won't be using:

• Tome of Battle and similarly complex mechanics (spells, Incarnum, Psionics, etc) are out. As I wrote in my original post, the player doesn't want to learn a lot of new mechanics.
• A mashup of existing complex classes. Reviewing the existing options, I think it's clear I'll just have to homebrew something. However, if you have a class or PrC you want to suggest that I steal abilities from, please continue to suggest it.

Updated List of Things I'll Include:

• Ki pool which refreshes every encounter.
• Sudden Strike, with the addition that nothing is immune.
• Evasion.
• Uncanny Dodge.
• Lots of Skills and Skill bonuses. What level is still up to debate.
• Immediate Action Invisibility, which improves to some sort of HiPS.
• Fast Movement.
• Passive always on Ghost Strike.
• At will Dimension Door.
• Fog Cloud.
• Death Attack.
• Non-Detection/Undetectable Alignment
• Some sort of Tremorsense or Touchsight or whatever that allows them to sense others.

More ideas and feedback are certainly welcome. Thanks.

[Psyren]

Given those restrictions, Assassin with a ki pool of some kind is the only thing I can think of.

I don't consider psionics to be a complex system - it's definitely easier to grasp than ToB, especially if the player in question has ever played a video game RPG.

[ericgrau]

monk 1-2 / rogue X, done. Shadow and silent moves armor enchants, tumbling, jump optimization, etc. Stunning fist, weapon finesse. Flurry if he can manage the AC and has 4 or less attacks; otherwise wear armor. A ki focus weapon will keep stunning fist effective at higher levels, though it shouldn't be his only SA trigger. Making a foe lose a turn without losing anything yourself, even once every few rounds, is nice.

UMD is overrated and is not necessary to keep up with other rogues. For one it's only good for low level out of combat utility items which others can provide and besides that if you really need something you can spend a little more and get it in potion form. Maybe help him select potions such as invisibility and skip other kinds of utility.

Not that a custom class doesn't work too, but this is relatively simple. OTOH a simple rogue seems weaker than what Person_Man is listing, at least without some good magic items.

[Greenish]

For Ninja flavor, I like very much the Ninja Spy PrC, from Oriental Adventures. It's a 10 level class (entry at lvl 8), which gives several exotic weapon proficiencies from an appropriate list, slow fall, improved evasion, a big boost to Balance, Climb, Jump and Tumble (+20 eventually, competence), HiPS (very important!), half Sneak Attack Progression, Alter Self at will (Su), Slippery Mind, poison immunity and Abundant Step.

Unless they messed up the update, Ninja Spy doesn't get "at will Alter Self", it gets A Thousand Faces (which is more like Disguise Self).

Updated List of Things I'll Include:

Spoiler

Show

• Ki pool which refreshes every encounter.
• Sudden Strike, with the addition that nothing is immune.
• Evasion.
• Uncanny Dodge.
• Lots of Skills and Skill bonuses. What level is still up to debate.
• Immediate Action Invisibility, which improves to some sort of HiPS.
• Fast Movement.
• Passive always on Ghost Strike.
• At will Dimension Door.
• Fog Cloud.
• Death Attack.
• Non-Detection/Undetectable Alignment
• Some sort of Tremorsense or Touchsight or whatever that allows them to sense others.

Lifting the Acrobatics from Ninja Spy might be nifty. Aside from Tumble, those movement skills are rather situational for investing lots of skill points, but still something a ninja should have. Take 10 allows for more reliability, since they're routine stuff for a ninja.

[HeadlessMermaid]

Unless they messed up the update, Ninja Spy doesn't get "at will Alter Self", it gets A Thousand Faces (which is more like Disguise Self).

I don't know anything about an update, but the OA book (3.0, yes) says:

Thousand Faces (Su): At 7th level, a ninja spy gains the ability to change his appearance at will, as if using the spell alter self.

Was it meant to be Disguise Self, since it does make more sense? Did Alter Self work differently in 3.0 perhaps? Did I miss an Errata? I don't know.

Now, for Person_Man's homebrew Ninja, I agree that the Druid's version would be much more appropriate. (Also, I believe that the Druid's version is not at all appropriate for Druids, but that's another matter. )

[Ossian]

Rogue "X" + Monk 6 (max) and assassin.

It is rather sub-par compared to other players of that level who specialize or full-cast, but it can be fun and it is really simple to build and use.

I daresay that a non-magical, hard-ninja-training ninja can have all the 8 SP of a rogue. They can blend into society and become agriculturers, fishermen, artisans, poets and whathave you, they know poisons and a thousand tricks and, speaking of tricks, lots of skill points are good to buy (at the rate of 2SP x item) the skill tricks from Complete Scoundrel. Rogue can max out stealth (MS and Hide) and perception (spot, listen, search) with Balance, Jump, Tumble and Climb being 4 more ninjaescque skills.

For fluff, forgery and appraise are also good ninja skills, and so are Sense Motive and Bluff.

Monk 6 gives you the boatload of feats and fancy skills

Grab "superior unarmed strike" (ToB feat)
Grab Ascetic Rogue (rogue and monk levels stack)
Grab a periapt of wisdom for insane awareness of your surrounding, mental resiliency and better AC.

Assassin gives it some extra fluff.

Improved initiative is a must
Weapon Finesse is another.

You have your ninja nice and dandy and ready to flip around like good ninjas do.

M.



PS Please note the double monk weapons

Spoiler

Show

PPS
If that sounds too complicated, just go rogue/urban ranger and then straight Nightsong Enforcer (or infiltrator)

[Caliphbubba]

just for giggles you should include something to reflect the inverse ninja law.

to reflect that Ninja's are just better when they aren't any other ninjas around.

The law of Concervation of Ninjitsu: as long as the character is the only character in the encounter with levels of >insert your homebrew class name here<, he has a +1 insight bonus to all attacks, skill checks and save DCs equal to the amount of Ki in his temporary Ki pool. For every character with levels of >blank< in a given encounter this bonus is divided by that number of characters, to a minimum of +1.


or something. this way it will get weaker the more cool tricks he uses to reflect the Ki being expended rather than focused.

[Telonius]

just for giggles you should include something to reflect the inverse ninja law.

to reflect that Ninja's are just better when they aren't any other ninjas around.

The law of Concervation of Ninjitsu: as long as the character is the only character in the encounter with levels of >insert your homebrew class name here<, he has a +1 insight bonus to all attacks, skill checks and save DCs equal to the amount of Ki in his temporary Ki pool. For every character with levels of >blank< in a given encounter this bonus is divided by that number of characters, to a minium of +1.


or something. this way it will get weaker the more cool tricks he uses to reflect the Ki being expended rather than focused.

Make sure that's only for allies. To go along with it, Ninjas are like magnets - opposing Ninjas will tend to collide with each other. If you encounter an enemy who is also <insert class>, you must make a Will save or immediately engage the target in melee, to the best of your ability. (Similar to Knight's Challenge).

[Person_Man]

OK, so I've got the bones of a homebrew ready, although I'm still undecided about what to include and not include. In particular, I can't think of a good capstone. Any ideas?

[ericgrau]

I'd make conservation of ninjutsu count all allies, ninja or not, to be fair. Then if fights start looking bad the ninja might intentionally stand on the sidelines. Then, once all his allies fall after they've picked off the opposing minions, the real battle begins .

[Caliphbubba]

OK, so I've got the bones of a homebrew ready, although I'm still undecided about what to include and not include. In particular, I can't think of a good capstone. Any ideas?

What about a limited simulacrum ability to make copies of himself? maybe have a mirror image type power at lower levels and progress it to having the images being more solid and being able to act as flankers, and then finally as short lived, somewhat powered down copies of the ninja.