tier tweak for paladin, monk, and Fighter

[archon_huskie]

I am running a low magic game. To help create this feel. I did not allow classes spellcasting that gave spell casting at first level. (These classes are available after level one though provided roleplay is done.)

To make paladin, Monk, and fighter (tiers five, five and low four respectively) a little higher, I made the follow changes:

• They get one extra bonus feat, 4 additional skill points at 1st level and an extra skill point at each additional level.
• Two cross class skills may be taken as class skills.
• Paladins and Monks make take Weapon specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, and Greater Weapon Specialization
• Fighters may take any feats as their Fighter bonus feats

Is this enough to take them to upper tier four, if not what else can I add?

[Draz74]

Nope, that won't help much.

In fact, just the fact that you thought the Weapon Specialization tree would be helpful is a bad sign. The Fighter is low-tier because the designers thought that such feats would be a strong advantage for him, and they're actually not. A good Monk or Paladin shouldn't take those feats even if they're available.

What sources are you allowing in your game? That is crucial for figuring out how much you've buffed the Fighter (i.e. whether he can take non-Core feats as his bonus feats now). (Also, note that the Paladin is high Tier 4 even with no houserules, if you have access to the right splatbooks.) It will also help me figure out if some of the common, easy fixes are worth suggesting.

[MeeposFire]

In order to bring those classes up a tier you need to make them do better with their standard action attacks. All those classes do well if they can stand and do full attack actions. They all fall apart when they can't. That is what makes TOB classes so useful as their strikes allow them to deal good damage.

If you turned flurry of blows into you can make an extra attack and all attacks are at a -2 penalty (so it is a form of the snap kick feat) this would help (and then diminish the penalty and add a second attack as normal). This would allow you to do extra attacks on the move such as with your standard actions, spring attack (which would now be useful), and full attacks. Just add on brass knuckles, ki gloves, or what ever you like to boost unarmed attacks and monks would be decent.

That is just one example. Remember to add skill points and skills to classes like fighter so that they are good outside of combat too.

[archon_huskie]

List I read put them at tier five.

Sources are SRD, and Core books, and homebrewed.
(Only have one homebrewed feat so far. It allows a monk to multi-class freely with fighter and allows the monk to use any weapon he has weapon specialization in flurry of blows.)

Ahead of you already on the fighter useful outside of combat skills.

[Gnaeus]

List I read put them at tier five.

Sources are SRD, and Core books, and homebrewed.
(Only have one homebrewed feat so far. It allows a monk to multi-class freely with fighter and allows the monk to use any weapon he has weapon specialization in flurry of blows.)

Ahead of you already on the fighter useful outside of combat skills.

They are all tier 5 in core. Paladin gets good splat support. Especially complete champion and Spell Compendium.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The tweak for all three classes came in the same book... ToB.

I mean, other than a two-level dip for bonus feats from fighter or Cha to saves from Paladin or monk for evasion, who bothers with them anymore?

[Draz74]

OK. The best way to fix Monk is really to give it a psionic progression (as a Psychic Warrior of two levels lower, I suggest), but I'm guessing that won't fit with your low-magic setting (even though Psychic Warrior powers tend to be easy to re-fluff to be very non-flashy).

Barring that, the following changes at least help the Monk a lot:

• Proficiency with unarmed strikes (duh)
• 6+Int skill points per level
• Good BAB -- I actually don't like this one, as I don't see the Monk as a true "warrior" class, but if you're not going to give it anything as powerful as psionic power progression, then this will at least help. Helps if you want it to be decent at grappling, too.
• The ability to use Flurry of Blows once per round (or twice at L11+) whenever it makes any attack, not just a full attack
• Spell Resistance: make it automatically bypassable by friendly effects, so that it actually becomes a cool ability instead of an annoying one.
• Quivering Palm: make it usable at least 1/day, maybe more.
• Slightly faster AC bonus progression. Maybe +1 at first level, scaling up to +7 at Level 19?

Normally, the ability to enchant one's unarmed strikes is also a priority. However, if no one else has magic weapons either, this won't matter.

It's still helpful if the Monk is able to get something out of other weapons, though. For example, if you meet something with DR/cold iron, it's nice if the Monk can get more than 1d6 damage out of a cold iron weapon. To this end, I like to make the rule:

The Monk deals his base unarmed damage when he wields any melee Monk weapon. However, the extra attacks granted by Flurry of Blows must be made with either an unarmed strike or shuriken.

[MeeposFire]

The tweak for all three classes came in the same book... ToB.

I mean, other than a two-level dip for bonus feats from fighter or Cha to saves from Paladin or monk for evasion, who bothers with them anymore?

A lot of people. Though I do agree that the TOB classes are better in most cases of being those archetypes.

That said making flurry work with standard action attacks and the like really helps pull them together. They become effective skirmishers which RAW they are not but should be.

[Corronchilejano]

The tweak for all three classes came in the same book... ToB.

I mean, other than a two-level dip for bonus feats from fighter or Cha to saves from Paladin or monk for evasion, who bothers with them anymore?

(slowly raises hand)

Currently I have a 3rd level campaing with a Paladin, a Fighter, a Rogue and a Cleric. The fighter completely dominates the table, although we'll see when level goes up.

[nedz]

The fighter varient I quite like is the Thug (I forget the source).
Basically you drop the 1st level bonus feat, give them 4 skill points and change the skill selection (Thug adds four more class skills).

Now Thug itself isn't great, but you can adapt this concept to create more distinctive classes. You can even let your players customise their fighter this way (ie let them pick the four extra class skills). Fighter is supposed to be the architype for all manor of fantasy warriors, the trouble is that it isn't: skill wise its a straightjacket.

Whilst this is excellent for RP; and creates characters which are much more interesting to play out of combat; I'm not sure it changes the tier all that much. Perhaps it raises them half a tier ?

[MeeposFire]

Low levels are where fighters actually dominate. For instance notice that your attack ability is just as good using a normal attack and a full attack. Once 6th level hits that will not longer be the case and things just go downhill from there.

[Greenish]

The fighter varient I quite like is the Thug (I forget the source).

UA/SRD.

And no, 4+int skillpoints and a few interaction skills aren't really enough to raise fighter a tier.


PF paladin is probably tier 4, thanks to lessened MAD and better smites.

[Corronchilejano]

Low levels are where fighters actually dominate. For instance notice that your attack ability is just as good using a normal attack and a full attack. Once 6th level hits that will not longer be the case and things just go downhill from there.

I was thinking of removing additional attacks altogether from campaing, and just add 50%, 100% and 150% damage to characters that have additional attacks based on BAB.

Broken much?

[Gnaeus]

The tweak for all three classes came in the same book... ToB.

I mean, other than a two-level dip for bonus feats from fighter or Cha to saves from Paladin or monk for evasion, who bothers with them anymore?

Thats a little unfair to paladin. TOB is better, certainly. But with Battle Blessing and Travel Domain, Paladins can function with some effectiveness. Fighters and monks still stink.

I was thinking of removing additional attacks altogether from campaing, and just add 50%, 100% and 150% damage to characters that have additional attacks based on BAB.

Broken much?

Probably not too bad. Makes DR almost useless. Cleave is a little better. Crowd control (Tripping, grappling, disarming) becomes much less useful.

[Mando Knight]

They are all tier 5 in core. Paladin gets good splat support. Especially complete champion and Spell Compendium.

Yeah... Complete Champion adds Battle Blessing, which is essentially Auto-Quicken Spell for Paladins. That's available at 6th level. It's still not quite as strong as the Crusader, but Battle Blessing and the Divine feats help the Paladin a good bit, as well as access to some of the extra spells. Spell Compendium helps the fullcasters more than it does the Paladin, but it still adds a good number of spells to the list.

[The Cat Goddess]

Gestalt Fighter with Barbarian, Paladin, Monk & Ranger. Remove Fighter class by itself.

This means that Barbarian, Paladin, Monk & Ranger all have Good BAB, and gain Fighter Bonus Feats as a Fighter would, in addition to their regular abilities. Keep their Hit Die as normal though, don't raise the Rangers & Monks to d10.

If you (for some reason) think Barbarians & Rangers don't need that much of a boost, only give them Fighter Bonus Feats every 3rd or 4th level (progression like current Bonus Feats & Stat Raises).

[Gnaeus]

Spell Compendium helps the fullcasters more than it does the Paladin, but it still adds a good number of spells to the list.

I actually don't think so. Paladin needed the movement spells. A cleric could already fill his spell list with awesome, Paladin got a couple of treasures (some of which become extra awesome in a wand in a wand chamber in their sword.)

[Corronchilejano]

Probably not too bad. Makes DR almost useless. Cleave is a little better. Crowd control (Tripping, grappling, disarming) becomes much less useful.

Touché. Guess I'll have to think of REAL features for high BAB.

[Draz74]

I was thinking of removing additional attacks altogether from campaing, and just add 50%, 100% and 150% damage to characters that have additional attacks based on BAB.

Broken much?

As quick-and-easy fixes go, I like this. Not only does it make your melee characters much more mobile, but it also speeds up play a lot.

[Gnaeus]

As quick-and-easy fixes go, I like this. Not only does it make your melee characters much more mobile, but it also speeds up play a lot.

It does do that. How would it alter natural attacks? Do they still get multiples?

[paddyfool]

Tier 1 SRD Paladin fix: Play a highly idealistic Cleric with the Divine Might feat, take a 3-level dip in Prestige Paladin. Comes expensive in skill points, but otherwise you don't lose much. And in many ways the fluff of a Paladin fits a prestige class better than a base class, which is why so many prestige classes mimic their abilities.

Similarly, the Druidic Avenger works as a Tier 1 Barbarian, a straight-up CodZilla Cleric can work as a Tier 1 Fighter, and at a stretch, a Cloistered Cleric can work as a Tier 1 Monk. Sorta.

The trouble is quite simply that all other class abilities are just not as effective as full prepared casting.

[Corronchilejano]

It does do that. How would it alter natural attacks? Do they still get multiples?

I'd figure, since natural attacks are attained only by Druids and Wizards and are already "balanced" damage wise. Again, it would only affect attacks that could be used with a BAB progression, meaning everyone would get,at least, ONE good strike, and a series of weaker ones if they have other sources of attack.

In a normal table, I'd only have to worry about the ranger's offhand attack (subsequent feats would just allow it to multiply the offhand damage), and maybe fighter snap-kickin and force-devotioning his way to more attacks (never really happened to me as a DM, have an aberrant rogue build in the works).

Guess I'll be testing it... tomorrow night, wow, quick.

[archon_huskie]

Tier 1 SRD Paladin fix: Play a highly idealistic Cleric with the Divine Might feat, take a 3-level dip in Prestige Paladin. Comes expensive in skill points, but otherwise you don't lose much. And in many ways the fluff of a Paladin fits a prestige class better than a base class, which is why so many prestige classes mimic their abilities.

Similarly, the Druidic Avenger works as a Tier 1 Barbarian, a straight-up CodZilla Cleric can work as a Tier 1 Fighter, and at a stretch, a Cloistered Cleric can work as a Tier 1 Monk. Sorta.

The trouble is quite simply that all other class abilities are just not as effective as full prepared casting.

Right. Tell why would I want tier 1 monks and paladins when I am only trying to raise them from 5 to 4?

[gallagher]

I'd figure, since natural attacks are attained only by Druids and Wizards and are already "balanced" damage wise. Again, it would only affect attacks that could be used with a BAB progression, meaning everyone would get,at least, ONE good strike, and a series of weaker ones if they have other sources of attack.

In a normal table, I'd only have to worry about the ranger's offhand attack (subsequent feats would just allow it to multiply the offhand damage), and maybe fighter snap-kickin and force-devotioning his way to more attacks (never really happened to me as a DM, have an aberrant rogue build in the works).

Guess I'll be testing it... tomorrow night, wow, quick.

well you can always play a race with a natural attack, like catfolk or warforged for their slam.

and psychic warrior and totemist have natural attacks from their abilities.

and what about the monk's flurry of blows?

[Corronchilejano]

well you can always play a race with a natural attack, like catfolk or warforged for their slam.

and psychic warrior and totemist have natural attacks from their abilities.

That's the issue with all this. Some attacks that don't scale with BAB (don't get additional attacks is what I mean) already have powers that raise their damage, so they should remain unaffected. This would remain true for, say, an extra attack due to snap kick or a secondary slam attack.

and what about the monk's flurry of blows?

This is when it hits the fan. This one AND two weapon fighting, since they don't REALLY scale. I guess you could make anyone with TWF or flurry as always being able to do his attacks as a standard action, but then, why not rule it for every type of multiattack? Why would this one be any different?

Totally open to suggestions.

[paddyfool]

Sorry about my Tier 1 suggestions being less than helpful. I was feeling a tad flippant.

Actually, making all multi-attacks (whether TWF, iterative or Flurry) into standard actions wouldn't be all that bad of an idea. Suddenly, characters no longer have to stand still to be effective.

And there was a Tier 4 homebrew paladin that I rather loved. It even came with self-defined ideals. See what you think. (Ignore the bits about Prowess and skill sets).

[archon_huskie]

Gestalt Fighter with Barbarian, Paladin, Monk & Ranger. Remove Fighter class by itself.

This means that Barbarian, Paladin, Monk & Ranger all have Good BAB, and gain Fighter Bonus Feats as a Fighter would, in addition to their regular abilities. Keep their Hit Die as normal though, don't raise the Rangers & Monks to d10.

If you (for some reason) think Barbarians & Rangers don't need that much of a boost, only give them Fighter Bonus Feats every 3rd or 4th level (progression like current Bonus Feats & Stat Raises).

I was considering Gestalting paladin and monk with fighter. but I have not read the gesalt rules very much to be comfortable GMing with them.

[Roderick_BR]

I was thinking of removing additional attacks altogether from campaing, and just add 50%, 100% and 150% damage to characters that have additional attacks based on BAB.

Broken much?

Let's see. You give up potential damage x4 (4 attacks) for more sure 2 attacks (in form of a single attack). Since it's expected that you're likely to hit only 2 out of those 4 attacks, AND it allows you to move and attack, I think it's a good trade-off. DR is not much an issue, as players will either carry a golf-bag or Power Attack to heck and back anyway. Maybe allow characters to still use the extra attacks as full-attacks, as you may prefer it sometimes (taking down multiple mooks, using sneak attack, etc). Anything else (grapples, disarms, etc), are already situational anyway, so I wouldn't worry about it.

Gestalt Fighter with Barbarian, Paladin, Monk & Ranger. Remove Fighter class by itself.

This means that Barbarian, Paladin, Monk & Ranger all have Good BAB, and gain Fighter Bonus Feats as a Fighter would, in addition to their regular abilities. Keep their Hit Die as normal though, don't raise the Rangers & Monks to d10.

If you (for some reason) think Barbarians & Rangers don't need that much of a boost, only give them Fighter Bonus Feats every 3rd or 4th level (progression like current Bonus Feats & Stat Raises).

Now that's a very good idea. I tried to gestalt monk and fighter once, and it came out well. I just didn't want to make all monks be fighters and all fighters be monks, but gestalting fighter with the others helps to keep the general "warrior" flavor still be around works neatly. For a more "pure" fighter feel, you could gestalt him with the Knight (Player's Handbook 2) too, if you want something with full armor and without divine magic. You can drop the HD back to d10 if you feel it get too strong, and drop the Lawful requeriment.

[T.G. Oskar]

The tweak for all three classes came in the same book... ToB.

I mean, other than a two-level dip for bonus feats from fighter or Cha to saves from Paladin or monk for evasion, who bothers with them anymore?

I do. At least with Paladin and Monk; Fighter, on the other hand, is soundly defeated by Warblade. Otherwise I wouldn't have gone with 'brewing fixes with them, or trying to study ways to make them slightly more useful aside from INA for Monks or ubercharger for Paladins when I play them. And I like Crusaders, mind you, but I feel that all the good and worthwhile Paladin material would go to waste with erasing it from existence.

Besides, you dip Monk for evasion? I thought you dipped it for Invisible Fist, Wis to AC, good saves and two free feats (if you know how to use them)...

Really: if you want to make martial characters useful, allow them to make full attacks as standard actions. Pounce is nice, but if you can't charge you're finished. If you wish to make full attacks relevant, make it so that when you're actually spending your entire turn to attack, all attacks have their highest BAB (so a character with BAB 20 has +20/+15/+10/+5 as a standard action and +20/+20/+20/+20 as a full action). Then limit that to martial characters. Not the best fix but gives more power to all martial characters, and potentially gives that to semi-martial characters (rogues, for example). It's at least a good start.

[wayfare]

That's the issue with all this. Some attacks that don't scale with BAB (don't get additional attacks is what I mean) already have powers that raise their damage, so they should remain unaffected. This would remain true for, say, an extra attack due to snap kick or a secondary slam attack.



This is when it hits the fan. This one AND two weapon fighting, since they don't REALLY scale. I guess you could make anyone with TWF or flurry as always being able to do his attacks as a standard action, but then, why not rule it for every type of multiattack? Why would this one be any different?

Totally open to suggestions.

This is a bit afield from the original idea of +% damage, but you could have flat die or number bonus that scales to # of attacks:

1 Attack: +0
2 Attacks: +1(weapon die)
3 Attacks: +2(weapon dice)
4 Attacks: +3(weapon dice)

Using this system, there are two ways TWF or Flurry of Blows could work

1) They just add bonus dice as above (considering monk damage...yeesh)

2) You get to make a second attack that inflicts damage as of it were 10 levels lower than your standard attack progression. this is a pretty bad way of explaining it, so i'll try to clarify.

Bob the Ranger (20) is attacking an opponent with his longsword. On a successful hit, Bob rolls 4d8 + Strength Modifier damage.

If Bob were fighting with a Longsword and a dagger while using TWF, Bob's main hand attack would inflict 4d8 + Strength Modifier damage. His off hand attack would inflict damage as if Bob were 10 levels lower: 2d8 + Strength modifier damage.

Does that make sense?