Potion of enlarge = 250GP?

[BossMuro]

So, I'm playing in an online arena-style game (3.5). Things were going well until, out of the blue, the GM informs me that the potions of enlarge are actually 250GP (this is after a few months of playing a grappler who drinks them like water, by the way.) He then pointed me to a table in the DMG which inexplicably lists them at this price.

I tried the obvious arguments that came to mind: It's obviously a typo, text trumps tables, you're stupid, etc. Nothing seemed to budge him, which is strange because he's been pretty reasonable until now. Is there any conclusive way to prove to him that it's an error, other then typing "text beats tables" in increasingly large capital letters?

Alternately, am I wrong? Is there, in fact some legitimate reason for a level 1 potion to cost five times what it should?

[stainboy]

Potions of Enlarge Person on the random treasure generation tables are 250gp because they have higher than the minimum CL. You can still use the spell level x caster level formula to make them for cheaper.

[The Rose Dragon]

I don't know where there is text that says it costs 50 gold pieces, but if I recall correctly, it is because those potions were at caster level 5.

[BossMuro]

Why would they have higher than the minimum CL? CL doesn't affect it at all, other then duration.

And by text, I mean the potion pricing rules in the PHB, which set a potion's base price at 50GP x Caster Level x Spell level. It's pretty clear about that.

[The Rose Dragon]

Why would they have higher than the minimum CL? Cl doesn't affect it at all, other then duration.

That is probably why.

[Saph]

It's a legacy from 3.0. In D&D 3.0, Enlarge and Reduce both altered the target's size by 10% per caster level, up to a maximum of 50%. Hence potions of Enlarge and Reduce were always made at CL 5th.

And now you know!

As for explaining it to the GM, text trumps table is the wrong way to go about it. The tables in the DMG are random treasure tables. They're what you get if you kill a monster and go rooting through its belongings. If you want to buy potions, you don't use the random treasure tables, you either check the shop or you find a 3rd-level caster with the Brew Potion feat and place an order. Random treasure tables have nothing to do with purchased items.

[BossMuro]

But it's a minute per level. That's long enough for most fights, and none of the other spells are listed at higher than thier base CL. I'd been buying them at level 2 for a while, but that's just being safe rather than sorry.

EDIT: Ah, ninja'd.

[Jarian]

I believe it's an unintentional holdover from 3.0, though I don't recall the exact details of why. It's been brought up here before, and someone pointed out something in 3.0 that made them cost 250gp.

Your GM is choosing to screw you over for no reason, ignoring the magic item creation rules and general sense. Smack him for me.

Edit: Swordsaged!

[Ravens_cry]

Your GM is choosing to screw you over for no reason, ignoring the magic item creation rules and general sense. Smack him for me.

They are not rules. They are guidelines. They give you an idea of the value of an item, an estimate, but no DM, for instance, is going to sell a continuous item of True Strike for 8000 gp.

[Godskook]

They are not rules. They are guidelines. They give you an idea of the value of an item, an estimate, but no DM, for instance, is going to sell a continuous item of True Strike for 8000 gp.

Incorrect, but only concerning potions(and probably wands/scrolls/etc). The pricing on potions is a matter of RAW within the feat Brew Potions, and while it is reprinted in the custom magic rules, the feat is the most specific place to learn how that feat works.

[Jarian]

They are not rules. They are guidelines. They give you an idea of the value of an item, an estimate, but no DM, for instance, is going to sell a continuous item of True Strike for 8000 gp.

Godskook already answered the important bit, but I'd like to point out that an item of continuous True Strike for 8000gp would be a huge waste of money.

True Strike is discharged when you make an attack with it, you see.

Continuous True Strike =/= continuous +20 insight bonus to attacks.

[Ravens_cry]

Incorrect, but only concerning potions(and probably wands/scrolls/etc). The pricing on potions is a matter of RAW within the feat Brew Potions, and while it is reprinted in the custom magic rules, the feat is the most specific place to learn how that feat works.

That's the price for making them. I do agree suddenly changing the price without extenuating circumstances is arbitrary and bad DMing in its own right though.

[ericgrau]

Explain to him that it's a holdover mistake from 3e and every single other potion except enlarge person follows the normal pricing. That and the brew potion feat says so specifically. Don't slap him or call him stupid. I wouldn't expect anyone to know this until they found out about it. It's also not very persuasive.

[Jarian]

Don't slap him or call him stupid.

If he's been shown the relevant rules for creating potions ("text trumps table", OP), then he deserves to at least be slapped in spirit for trying to hose a player based on what a table says when it's in clear violation of intent and written rules.

In my opinion anyway.

I wouldn't advocate actually slapping him, but yeah.

[Corronchilejano]

He obviously never played 3E, so if I where you, I'd just slap him and c...

Don't slap him or call him stupid. I wouldn't expect anyone to know this until they found out about it.

... ok, well I got nothing then.

Seriously though, some people tend to apply that price as written since appparently the enlarge potion is much better than any other potion in 1st level.

At least he didn't do like my DM, price it at 500 and caster level 1.

[Ionizer]

That's the price for making them. I do agree suddenly changing the price without extenuating circumstances is arbitrary and bad DMing in its own right though.

Brew Potion [Item Creation]
Prerequisite

Caster level 3rd.
Benefit

You can create a potion of any 3rd-level or lower spell that you know and that targets one or more creatures. Brewing a potion takes one day. When you create a potion, you set the caster level, which must be sufficient to cast the spell in question and no higher than your own level. The base price of a potion is its spell level × its caster level × 50 gp. To brew a potion, you must spend 1/25 of this base price in XP and use up raw materials costing one half this base price.

When you create a potion, you make any choices that you would normally make when casting the spell. Whoever drinks the potion is the target of the spell.

Any potion that stores a spell with a costly material component or an XP cost also carries a commensurate cost. In addition to the costs derived from the base price, you must expend the material component or pay the XP when creating the potion.

You buy at the base price. If it cost 50 gp to brew a potion of CLW and you could only sell it for 50 gp, no one would ever brew potions, since there's no profit. As it is, it costs 25 gp (and 2 XP) to brew a 1st level potion at CL 1, and you can sell that potion for 50 gp.

As for what you can do to convince your DM... You can point him directly to that part I bolded up there, as well as point out that every other 1st level potion is 50 gp. You could also bring up the reason for the discrepancy (the hold-over/revision failure from the 3.0 version of the spells).

If he sticks to his guns, see if there's something you can do with your 5-minutes of big-ness. With 5 minutes, your Enlarge Person might outlast buffs that your opponents use, especially if they're using potions/wands/scrolls to do their buffing for them. You might just need to stall them out (you said you're a grapple-monster anyway, right? Just pin them until their buffs run out, then start strangling them to death. It'd be funny and humiliating.) with your longer duration.

[BossMuro]

So, hes put it to a vote. By the time I saw the voting thread, there were four votes. All in favor of keeping the price at 250 GP. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

Granted, basically all he said was "Do you want to keep the price from the dmg, or lower it?", so its almost understandable. And the players are pretty unfamiliar with the rules for an arena game. (Which is how I've been able to pretty much dominate from levels 1-6 by basically just tackling people and ripping thier arms off.)

So. On to plan C: Drinking rye.

[dextercorvia]

Get yourself a Tatoo of Expansion

For 150gp it will last 30 minutes. For 350gp it will last 7 rounds and get you two size increases. For 450gp, you get 90 minutes and two size increases.

[ericgrau]

His group is already mad at him for understand the grappling rules better than they do. Bringing the Power of the Dark Side (at least when it comes to grappling) into the mix will only invite banination. OP: I'd suggest helping your group with the grappling rules including counters like freedom of movement, wielding a light weapon or armor spikes (attack at a -4 without making grapple checks), range/reach/movement impeding spells, etc. Once they know how to fight back they might not think it's so overpowered.

[Rasman]

You...aren't in The Colosseum on RPoL are you?

[awa]

you can make the item of true strike use activated and then have it be activated as some kind of non action you can do multiple times a round thus getting around that problem

[Boci]

you can make the item of true strike use activated and then have it be activated as some kind of non action you can do multiple times a round thus getting around that problem

I tHink you missed some tHings there. How are you making tHe aCtiVation a non-ation?

Also, forgiVe te strange formating, I Can only type tHe letters C, V and H as apitals.

[awa]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems...m#useActivated

"Unless stated otherwise, activating a use-activated magic item is either a standard action or not an action at all and does not provoke attacks of opportunity, unless the use involves performing an action that provokes an attack of opportunity in itself. If the use of the item takes time before a magical effect occurs, then use activation is a standard action. If the item’s activation is subsumed in its use and takes no extra time use activation is not an action at all. "

when designing the magic item set it up to activate by some kind of free action put it in glasses and make it activated by looking at thinks or something similar

[dextercorvia]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems...m#useActivated

"Unless stated otherwise, activating a use-activated magic item is either a standard action or not an action at all and does not provoke attacks of opportunity, unless the use involves performing an action that provokes an attack of opportunity in itself. If the use of the item takes time before a magical effect occurs, then use activation is a standard action. If the item’s activation is subsumed in its use and takes no extra time use activation is not an action at all. "

when designing the magic item set it up to activate by some kind of free action put it in glasses and make it activated by looking at thinks or something similar

The precedent for use activated items that cast spells is Standard Action. cf. Eternal Wands. For it to be a non-action, the thing it is allowing you to do must be a non-action cf. Metamagic Rods.

[candycorn]

MIC, p.4 (sidebar): Magic item prices in the MIC update and replace previous entries.

MIC, p.256 (table): Potion of Enlarge Person: 50gp.

That should be all the RAW you need.

[aboyd]

Candycorn got it.

The 250 gp price is indeed a holdover from 3.0 edition, and is essentially a typo, although they never errata'd it. However, in the Magic Item Compendium, they have corrected the price to be a mere 50gp.

If your DM decides to stick with the 250 gp price, you might want to note that the [url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spellcastingAndServices]Spellcasting services[/i] show that a 1st level spell can be purchased for 10 gp. Even if you used the rules in the DMG 2 that provide extra pricing for hirelings, and even if you tripled their day-rate for trailing you on an adventure, it'd still be less than 50 gp to hire a spellcaster. So if the potions don't work out, head into town, offer 10 gp to someone to cast Enlarge on you, and then offer an extra 30 for them to join your party for the quest. Right before battle, have the spellcaster cast it on you. Poof, cheaper than a 250 gp potion.