Let's change the magic system! (3.5)

[Darklord Xavez]

I recently had an idea to change the 3.5 magic system and base it around the five colors of mana (explanation can be found here). The school system would be abolished, and all spellcasters would cast as sorcerers, including spells known (to simplify things). I was thinking of this:

• White: healing, light, good, protective abjurations and enchantments.
• Blue: Most illusions, counterspells, law, mind-influencing magic.
• Black: necromancy, darkness, evil, mind control.
• Red: most evocations, fire spells, chaos, some enchantments (haste)
• Green: magical enhancements, animals/plants, other nature-related.

Summoning: White spells summon good creatures, blue summons law, red summons chaos, black summons evil, green summons animals and elementals.
Key ability scores:

• White and Green: wisdom
• Blue: intelligence
• Black and Red: charisma

Each spellcaster chooses one color as their main color, and either its two allies (the ones next to it on the wheel) or its two enemies (the ones opposite it) as their secondaries. The first spell they learn for each level must be from its main color.

What do you think?
-X

[true_shinken]

Sounds like a good idea.
You know what I'd really like? Rules for using Magic as it works in MtG novels.

[Darklord Xavez]

Sounds like a good idea.
You know what I'd really like? Rules for using Magic as it works in MtG novels.

That would be cool.
-X

[LansXero]

Sounds like a good idea.
You know what I'd really like? Rules for using Magic as it works in MtG novels.

old walkers or new walkers? new version are a bit more manageable, if thoroughly nerfed =/

[true_shinken]

old walkers or new walkers? new version are a bit more manageable, if thoroughly nerfed =/

Oh, so there is a new version. Never heard of it, only the first novels were published here in Brazil.

[Chuckthedwarf]

Magic the Gathering much?

Do. Not. Like.

Magic the Gathering is an amusing game, sure, although I'd scoff at my friends and people in general who would spend hundreds of dollars on it any day...

But that kind of a system really limits roleplaying options. There are this many magic schools in D&D because they're generally compiled of spells that are similar to each other in some way. Evocation is pulling stuff out of nowhere, Conjuration - out of somewhere, Illusion - not actually pulling stuff out of anything but tricking everyone to think that you did, Necromancy - manipulating life energy or negative energy (although frankly Healing spells should go back to Necromancy school), and so on. Surely, other ways of classifications might exist, but the way it is right now works more or less.

It simply allows more varied combinations then your proposed system, and allows more freedom both from mechanical point of view and roleplaying point of view. Necromancy isn't "evil'. It has spells for destroying undead, and spells that do not blatantly manipulate negative energy (although the whole negative energy = always evil! thing always seemed ridiculous to me) and a necromancer doesn't have to be evil or immoral in any way.

I'm feeling I'm getting off-topic here; I shall finish shortly.
What you propose certainly makes it more convenient from mechanical point of view, but I absolutely disagree with it from "philosophical" point of view. The whole Red/Blue/Green/White/Black way to group spells makes little sense to me.

What you're proposing is basically an Arcane Shugenja (Complete Divine). They get pretty much exactly that, but with "oriental" fluff as opposed to MtG fluff. Fire, Water, Air, Earth, Metal, Wood, I think that's about it. You pick one element as your main element, and can learn spells from related elements except for the opposing one. Naturally the most spells you get is with your main element.

I like Wizard fluff-wise as it is - a scholar, with clear choice of majors and minors from reasonably thematic schools.

Although good job, still.

[Darklord Xavez]

omitted for length

I understand how you don't like it. But I'm essentially taking the schools and clumping them into groups, moving a few spells around. It fits better with what I'm thinking about.
-X

[LansXero]

Oh, so there is a new version. Never heard of it, only the first novels were published here in Brazil.

New-walkers are more like very powerful mages; thus they are now playable.

As far as the color pie being restrictive, the sheer amount of cards in Magic would seem to prove otherwise. One thing that was always neat about the way spells worked in the MTG novels is that while your color may restrict the kind of effects you may produce, the specifics were left to each caster and to each situation. A bit like psionics, I guess: the more mana you pour into a spell, the bigger the effect you get, and the exact ramifications of it were left to each mage / walker's ability. How is that restrictive? :S

Also, in early editions at least, it had a bit of the defiling aspects from DarkSun: Mana doesnt come from nowhere, you are tapping into both your memories of a place and the energies underlying it. In time, you may deplete a land of its mana with terrible consequences to the world.

[Darklord Xavez]

New-walkers are more like very powerful mages; thus they are now playable.

As far as the color pie being restrictive, the sheer amount of cards in Magic would seem to prove otherwise. One thing that was always neat about the way spells worked in the MTG novels is that while your color may restrict the kind of effects you may produce, the specifics were left to each caster and to each situation. A bit like psionics, I guess: the more mana you pour into a spell, the bigger the effect you get, and the exact ramifications of it were left to each mage / walker's ability. How is that restrictive? :S

Also, in early editions at least, it had a bit of the defiling aspects from DarkSun: Mana doesnt come from nowhere, you are tapping into both your memories of a place and the energies underlying it. In time, you may deplete a land of its mana with terrible consequences to the world.

Please, keep on topic.
-X

[Psychonix]

Chromatic Magic? There's a third party supplement for that, it splits magic in to different schools based on colour

Chromatic Magic is a reclassification of the base spells from the standard rules using a different school system. All spells are given a school, or Colour. The basic descriptors of spells do not change. Only a few of their effects are modified to fit in with this reclassification. The schools and sub-schools do change. The effect of this alteration to the magic system is simple and subtle, but it has a very powerful follow-on effect to the nature of the game world that it might be included in. In particular there are fundamental effects upon specialist Wizards, and there may (if you choose to go that far) be effects upon clerical magic, or even the existence of any of the standard spellcasting classes.

Here is black magic.

[Mastikator]

Can't say I like it, too "videogamey" and way less plausible. I prefer magic to be either logical or mystical, this is neither.

[Darklord Xavez]

Can't say I like it, too "videogamey" and way less plausible. I prefer magic to be either logical or mystical, this is neither.

I am glad you supplied your opinion.
-X

[Hammerhead]

I expected this to be more D&D=M:tG commentary on adventure cards..

But this could be interesting. Especially if more open-ended spells (like Polymorph) were adjusted according to their results (polymorphing into a cloaker might be black; polymorphing into a Wyvern might be red).

[Czin]

I recently had an idea to change the 3.5 magic system and base it around the five colors of mana (explanation can be found here). The school system would be abolished, and all spellcasters would cast as sorcerers, including spells known (to simplify things). I was thinking of this:

• White: healing, light, good, protective abjurations and enchantments.
• Blue: Most illusions, counterspells, law, mind-influencing magic.
• Black: necromancy, darkness, evil, mind control.
• Red: most evocations, fire spells, chaos, some enchantments (haste)
• Green: magical enhancements, animals/plants, other nature-related.

Summoning: White spells summon good creatures, blue summons law, red summons chaos, black summons evil, green summons animals and elementals.
Key ability scores:

• White and Green: wisdom
• Blue: intelligence
• Black and Red: charisma

Each spellcaster chooses one color as their main color, and either its two allies (the ones next to it on the wheel) or its two enemies (the ones opposite it) as their secondaries. The first spell they learn for each level must be from its main color.

What do you think?
-X

So what your saying is, you're taking Warhammer fantasy's colors of magic and applying them to 3.5e, I'm mildly interested.

[erikun]

Well, the first thing I see is that requiring different ability scores for different colors means you end up with some mages being mostly SAD while others very MAD. Your white/green or red/black mages will be pretty simple to run, but heaven forbid that you'd try to run a blue mage focused on anything but pure blue magic. You might be better relying on different ability scores for different bonuses: high INT might allow for remembering more spells, while high CHA determines the DCs for effects.

White is not good and black is not evil. Blue would more appropriately include mind control, but I can understand why you'd move it over to black (and it wouldn't be entirely out of place there). You'll want to think of if Dispel Magic should belong in white (older Disenchant) or green (newer Naturalize).

[true_shinken]

You'll want to think of if Dispel Magic should belong in white (older Disenchant) or green (newer Naturalize).

Or blue (Counterspell).

[Darklord Xavez]

So what your saying is, you're taking Warhammer fantasy's colors of magic and applying them to 3.5e, I'm mildly interested.

Magic the Gathering, not warhammer.
-X

[Urpriest]

Isn't Haste transmutation? That said, if Rage is still a spell then there are at least some enchantments for Red.

Blue really does deserve the bulk of the mind control. There isn't very much black mind control, in fact I think I've seen more in red.

Also, black needs all wealth-related spells, since it's the color for capitalism.

Blue shouldn't be restricted to lawful outsiders, as most of the chaotic outsiders (and many neutral ones) also fit blue. Slaad are fairly blue, though I could see them black, while Mercanes are so blue they're colored blue.

How are you planning to have classes with multiple key abilities work? Especially for bonus spells?

[Czin]

Magic the Gathering, not warhammer.
-X

I have only the faintest of knowledge concerning MtG, all of it coming from that MtG video game from the earlyish 2000s, a game that I was terrible at and wasn't able to get past level 3 or something. So you'll have to forgive me for the mistake.

[Darklord Xavez]

Isn't Haste transmutation? That said, if Rage is still a spell then there are at least some enchantments for Red.

Blue really does deserve the bulk of the mind control. There isn't very much black mind control, in fact I think I've seen more in red.

Also, black needs all wealth-related spells, since it's the color for capitalism.

Blue shouldn't be restricted to lawful outsiders, as most of the chaotic outsiders (and many neutral ones) also fit blue. Slaad are fairly blue, though I could see them black, while Mercanes are so blue they're colored blue.

How are you planning to have classes with multiple key abilities work? Especially for bonus spells?

Haste (the spell) will be red because Haste (the MtG ability) is.

I don't want blue to be too powerful. They already have counterspells. Also, without mind-altering magic, all black is left with is negative energy and undead-themed spells.

Blue seems the color closest to lawful, so I think that will work.

For the multiple key abilities thing to work, only the main ability would give bonus spells.

To keep blue's power in check, I thought that it should be the only one that uses intelligence, so if you want to play a blue spellcaster, you need all three mental stats to be high (which leaves you physical stats absurdly low).
-X

[ericgrau]

Well it's an interesting way to change things up.

I'd re-use existing spells for balance. That means any counterspell is out, leaving only dispel magic which isn't as uber. Then all you have to do is change the class spell lists to fit each color, tack it onto an existing full caster caster class and bam balance (or as balanced as normal anyway).