The Greatest Archer Ever?

[big teej]

greetings playgrounders

I'm seeking some slight advice

a player of mine has told me his character's goal is to be "the greatest archer alive"

its a half elf 3rd level ranger

I suggested taking Deepwoods Sniper from Masters of the wild and Cragtop Archer from Races of stone

given our resources (spoilered below) I think this is the best I can give him

given our library, are there any 'better' suggestions I can make?


for the record, recommending a new race or class is out of bounds, the campaign has been in progress since level 1

also, recommending something NOT given in the sources below is also out of bounds.

our group has a standing ban on anything not
a) in hardcopy/book format
b) on the SRD

sources

Spoiler

Show

Races of Stone
Arms and Equipment Guide
Dungeon Master's Guide 3.0 and 3.5
Book of Exalted Deeds
Monster Manual II 3.0
Book of Vile Darkness
Dungeon Master's Guide II (3.0?)
Dieties and Demigods
Player's Handbook 3.5
Monster Manual 3.5
Cityscape
Masters of the Wild

thanks a bunch playgrounders

[Chilingsworth]

What? No Magic Item Compendium or Spell Compendium?

Also, DMG II is 3.5

[Eldariel]

Far as mundane archery goes, that's as good as it gets with those sources. Given the build shell, Cleric archer is already out of bounds since losing 3 levels screws up the buff progression big time.

I find the best you can do on top of that is to multiclass the Ranger into Barbarian and use the Ranger/Barbarian-shell to enter Deepwood Sniper. Barbarian notably grants faster movement (obviously useful for an archer) and Whirling Frenzy which in turn enables for some quite impressive flurries.

EDIT: Extra Rage [MotW] obviously to help out with the Rage-uses; gets you enough with just a level or two or Barbarian so you can go straight into Deepwood Sniper and profit.

[Xan_Kriegor]

Assuming that 'greatest archer' also partially includes 'longest range,' the Distance enhancement (+1 cost) will double his range, if that helps.

[big teej]

What? No Magic Item Compendium or Spell Compendium?

Also, DMG II is 3.5

its on my list of things to buy.
I plan on picking up every 3.x sourcebook (mwuahahaha)

also
thankyou, I've been wondering if DMG II is 3.5 since I got my hands on it

Far as mundane archery goes, that's as good as it gets with those sources. Given the build shell, Cleric archer is already out of bounds since losing 3 levels screws up the buff progression big time.

I find the best you can do on top of that is to multiclass the Ranger into Barbarian and use the Ranger/Barbarian-shell to enter Deepwood Sniper. Barbarian notably grants faster movement (obviously useful for an archer) and Whirling Frenzy which in turn enables for some quite impressive flurries.

I don't think the player (nor the character) would want to pick up the level of barbarian, but I"ll pass that along.



EDIT:

Assuming that 'greatest archer' also partially includes 'longest range,' the Distance enhancement (+1 cost) will double his range, if that helps.

does this stack with the range bonuses given by the deepwoods sniper and cragtop archer?

[Eldariel]

I don't think the player (nor the character) would want to pick up the level of barbarian, but I"ll pass that along.

*shrug* It's not a far cry from a Ranger; just a different way of fighting, crunch-wise. Not every barbarian has to be a member of some nomadic culture. Archer Barbarian really meshes rather well with Ranger; you basically learn a combat focus that allows you to shoot arrows more rapidly with stronger pull, but at the cost of accuracy (Whirling Frenzy). It's fairly taxing tho so you can't do it very often without rest. Also means you practice your mobility for better skirmishing combat. All in all, it feels like a skillset a master Archer should have. But as he will, of course.

EDIT: does this stack with the range bonuses given by the deepwoods sniper and cragtop archer?

Basically, yes.

[big teej]

*shrug* It's not a far cry from a Ranger; just a different way of fighting, crunch-wise. Not every barbarian has to be a member of some nomadic culture. Archer Barbarian really meshes rather well with Ranger; you basically learn a combat focus that allows you to shoot arrows more rapidly with stronger pull, but at the cost of accuracy (Whirling Frenzy). It's fairly taxing tho so you can't do it very often without rest. Also means you practice your mobility for better skirmishing combat. All in all, it feels like a skillset a master Archer should have. But as he will, of course.



Basically, yes.

crunch-wise you are correct, however I'd peg about half of our party feeling the need for things to match up fluff-wise before mechanics ever come up.

example
party leader is playing paladin20 because he doesn't feel it fits his character, I completely support this choie, he is utterly aware of more 'optimal' choices, but he feels they don't fit his concept, ergo, paladin20

same with the Ranger's player, as well as our dwarf fighter.

and my characters whenever I play

but I digress


RE: stacking
excelleeeeeeent

[Chilingsworth]

its on my list of things to buy.
I plan on picking up every 3.x sourcebook (mwuahahaha)

also
thankyou, I've been wondering if DMG II is 3.5 since I got my hands on it

In that case, there are two things in those books that you'll want to consider:

In the Magic Item Compendium, is the weapon ability Force. It can only be applied to ranged weapons. It turns the projectiles of the weapon into bolts of force. This allows them to overcome all damage reduction and also to hit incoporeal creatures. It's a +2 ability, I think.

In the Spell Compendium, there's the spell Arrowmind. It's a 1st level sorc/wizard and a 1st level ranger spell. It allows you to shot while threatened without provoking attacks of opportunity. It also allows you to threaten (out to your normal threat range) with said ranged weapon.

Not class suggestions, but still useful (I hope.)

[big teej]

In that case, there are two things in those books that you'll want to consider:

In the Magic Item Compendium, is the weapon ability Force. It can only be applied to ranged weapons. It turns the projectiles of the weapon into bolts of force. This allows them to overcome all damage reduction and also to hit incoporeal creatures. It's a +2 ability, I think.

In the Spell Compendium, there's the spell Arrowmind. It's a 1st level sorc/wizard and a 1st level ranger spell. It allows you to shot while threatened without provoking attacks of opportunity. It also allows you to threaten (out to your normal threat range) with said ranged weapon.

Not class suggestions, but still useful (I hope.)

I think 'force' is in another book I have (possibly A&EG) but yes those are both helpful.... once I get my hands on the books

[Greenish]

I think 'force' is in another book I have (possibly A&EG) but yes those are both helpful.... once I get my hands on the books

Force is in MIC, and it's pretty sweet for piercing DR.

The key to being a great archer is, quite frankly, sinking unseemly amounts of gold into your bow.

[nedz]

So your sources don't include Scout from Complete Adventurer. Nor the Swift Ambusher feat from Complete Scoundrel. That combination is fairly solid.

Complete Warriors Order of the Bow Initiate is also off your list; still that stacks poorly with Ranger (much better with scout).

Ranger archery is all about the machine gun style anyway; so its a pity you can't take Improved Rapid shot from Complete Warrior either.

I'm not sure I'm helping, but these are all options that might help if you had the books.

[LansXero]

Elven Double Bow from A&EG should help with machine-gunning arrows, no?

[Optimator]

Yeah, unfortunately archery is just one of those things that D&D makes really tricky to be good at. All the best stuff is super spread out and most of it isn't on your source list.

[nyarlathotep]

Just a sort of out there addition, if you could find the d&D book adaptation of the dungeons and dragons cartoon show it has the best bow in the game, the energy bow. It requires no arrows, deals 2d6 and you can make power shots with it (like power attack but at range).

[Greenish]

Just a sort of out there addition, if you could find the d&D book adaptation of the dungeons and dragons cartoon show it has the best bow in the game, the energy bow. It requires no arrows, deals 2d6 and you can make power shots with it (like power attack but at range).

Energy Bow. Slap Splitting and Force on that beauty, and bow won't get much better than that.

[big teej]

Elven Double Bow from A&EG should help with machine-gunning arrows, no?

you would think, but it just gives the rapid shot feat, which the Ranger already has

.... unless it stacks with the rapid shot feat (for a total of 4 arrows)
in which case I need to go and tell my player that its not redundant and he needs to find one....

Yeah, unfortunately archery is just one of those things that D&D makes really tricky to be good at. All the best stuff is super spread out and most of it isn't on your source list.

my source list is a work in progress

Just a sort of out there addition, if you could find the d&D book adaptation of the dungeons and dragons cartoon show it has the best bow in the game, the energy bow. It requires no arrows, deals 2d6 and you can make power shots with it (like power attack but at range).

I do need to remember to tell him about powershot

[term1nally s1ck]

Dipping Cleric for Knowledge Devotion, the Elf Domain, and the War Domain, or Law devotion, is a great choice and frees up feats via retraining.

Fighter 4 lets you grab ranged weapon mastery alongside weapon specialisation, for +2 to attack and +4 to damage.

Barbarian with Whirling Frenzy is a great dip for even moar arrowz.

If you can, there's an ACF in Drow of the Underdark that trades heavy armor prof for dex to damage vs flatfooted. Woodland Archer is RotW, but is AMAZING. Other than that, nothing jumps to mind, I'd suggest checking out the handbook.

[LansXero]

you would think, but it just gives the rapid shot feat, which the Ranger already has

.... unless it stacks with the rapid shot feat (for a total of 4 arrows)
in which case I need to go and tell my player that its not redundant and he needs to find one....

Yes and no. It takes a move action to 'nock the arrow on the second string', so you cant use both the extra arrow and rapid shot. Unless there was a way to reduce that (quick draw? rapid reload?) or to get an extra move action =/

[big teej]

Yes and no. It takes a move action to 'nock the arrow on the second string', so you cant use both the extra arrow and rapid shot. Unless there was a way to reduce that (quick draw? rapid reload?) or to get an extra move action =/

hmmm.....
being the DM for the campaign, I would let quick draw or rapid reload work for that

query: by raw, he could ENTER combat and pull this off on the first round without me making that exception could he not?

also, on taking quickshot/rapid reload

I don't have my books handy, but won't he be a little pressed for feats to make it into Deepwoods sniper quickly anyways?

[Drothmal]

Make him become a PsiWar. You have most of what you need on the SRD to turn him into a decent archer, such as

Expansion to increase the bow damage dice
Power that gives you enhanced hiding so you can snipe
A shield like spell
Adding damage and to hit to your shots

Then, with feats such as expanded knowledge, you can get some very nice powers from the psion list and you can get psionic shot (+2d6).

I'm assuming that Wis>Int for this character, otherwise a small psion dip can go very far

Increases both damage and out of combat flexibility, what is not to like?

EDIT: http://community.wizards.com/go/thre...RevisedPsychic (look for the "ranged build" section)

[MeeposFire]

Make him become a PsiWar. You have most of what you need on the SRD to turn him into a decent archer, such as

Expansion to increase the bow damage dice
Power that gives you enhanced hiding so you can snipe
A shield like spell
Adding damage and to hit to your shots

Then, with feats such as expanded knowldege, you can get some very nice powers from the psion list and you can get psionic shot (+2d6).

I'm assuming that Wis>Int for this character, otherswise a small psion dip can go very far

Increases both damage and out of combat flexibility, what is not to like?

Expansion does not work. While it says up top that projectiles and thrown weapons increase in size it then says lower that

"Any affected item that leaves your possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size"

So sorry once you shoot you lose your damage bonus.

[Greenish]

Expansion does not work. While it says up top that projectiles and thrown weapons increase in size it then says lower that

"Any affected item that leaves your possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size"

So sorry once you shoot you lose your damage bonus.

It's reasonable to assume that it works like Enlarge Person in this respect:

All equipment worn or carried by a creature is similarly enlarged by the spell. Melee and projectile weapons affected by this spell deal more damage. Other magical properties are not affected by this spell. Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature’s possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown weapons deal their normal damage, and projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them.

[Edit]: What do you know, Expansion works like that by RAW:

All your equipment, worn or carried, is similarly expanded by this power. Melee and projectile weapons deal more damage.

Other psionic or magical properties are not affected by this power. Any affected item that leaves your possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown weapons deal their normal damage (projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them).

[Drothmal]

Arrows do damage due to the bow, not to the size of the projectile (the arrows for a small bow and a composite bow are the same, yet they do different damage)

EDIT: I thought I had seen it explicitly explained somewhere, and I still believe that it works. Nonetheless, the point about a PsiWar dip stands

EDIT 2: Sweet! Thanks Greenish for finding it!

[MeeposFire]

Arrows do damage due to the bow, not to the size of the projectile (the arrows for a small bow and a composite bow are the same, yet they do different damage)

Nevermind

[gorfnab]

If only you had Complete Adventurer and Complete Scoundrel on your list. Swift Hunters make awesome archers.

[Eldariel]

crunch-wise you are correct, however I'd peg about half of our party feeling the need for things to match up fluff-wise before mechanics ever come up.

Well, I mean, fluff is what you make of it. No reason for Ranger/Barbarian's fluff to differ from Ranger's or Barbarian's fluff at all; it can be either-or. After all, Rage doesn't need to be a blind adrenaline rush; it can just as well be some manner of combat focus or some such if raging doesn't fit the given character.

But yeah, do as you will. I only brought it up since that's pretty much the only thing within the allowed sources that really makes you better at Archery that doesn't require switching out the early levels (Cleric or Psy War would obviously be amazing if you reworked it all). That and I always found Barbarians and Rangers really close to each other.

[Greenish]

That and I always found Barbarians and Rangers really close to each other.

What, no, the other is a wilderness focused warrior, and the other is wilderness focused warrior! There's absolutely no overlap!

[HunterOfJello]

Allowing Rapid Shot and Multishot to work as their pathfinder versions do would go a long way towards improving archery in the game. As it stands, archery is pretty terrible in 3.5e

[MeeposFire]

Allowing Rapid Shot and Multishot to work as their pathfinder versions do would go a long way towards improving archery in the game. As it stands, archery is pretty terrible in 3.5e

Meh. With the splitting enhancement and the like archers get lots of attacks already on a full attack. Many shot is better in 3.5 since it gives you a good standard action attack. Plus with greater many shot and skirmish damage you can make some nice mobile archer builds that do not work in PF. One more attack than what you can do in 3.5 is just not worth the loss in tactical versatility.

[TurtleKing]

Since everyone else is talking about the bows I will talk about the arrows. Having a nice bow is great but so are having nice arrows. As you scour the source books you have look for different arrows so you can pull off different kind of attacks. Just in the Arms and Equipment Guide you have the Alchemist's, Blunt, Thunder, Flight, and Signal arrows. The alchemist's arrow lets you ignite targets, while the thunder arrow is used for aoe sonic blast. The blunt arrow deals subdual/ non-lethal damage, and the flight arrow increases your range. The signal arrow based on which bird it is associated to signals your actions to others.

Some specific arrows are the Hell's Heart Arrowand Spectral Arrow from Book of Vile Darkness. THe Slaying Arrow and Sleep Arrow can be found in the SRD.

Most of these posts are based on the person using a bow. What if he wants to use a crossbow?