your experience playing a monk

[big teej]

-prepares to take major flak-


greetings playgrounders!

I have a knight who's personality* may end up gettig him killed, because of this, I am working on several backup characters.

I've settled on one of 4ish characters I wish to play
1) a human bard, support - don't feel like being a support character
2) a dwarf wizard - don't feel like dealing with the paperwork
3) human sorcerer - ULTIMATE WORLDBLASTING POWER!!!! but squishy
4) Human Monk - it'd be an interesting playchoice for me

*he chased after his personal nemesis with 13 hit points, thankfully couldn't catch him**


but I digress
I've never really played a monk, so I'm curious what your experience with playing a monk has been?

has it sucked as bad as it comes off on these forums?
not so bad?
what?

**bastard killed my horse


tl;dr tell me any and all stories about your experiences in playing a monk

[AslanCross]

Never played one, but in my first campaign we had a Monk who did pretty well. Considering it was an all-noob game (I was a noob too) He did have really good stats, though, so that might have been why. The game fell apart rather quickly, though.

[Greenish]

1) a human bard, support - don't feel like being a support character

Then don't be support, but go out and kick everyone's asses! Bards have the potential to be great frontliners, along with being generally brilliant. (Though maybe I'm biased.)

[big teej]

Then don't be support, but go out and kick everyone's asses! Bards have the potential to be great frontliners, along with being generally brilliant. (Though maybe I'm biased.)

heh, I knew I forgot something important in my OP

party composition

Half Orc Barbarian
Dwarf Fighter
Halfling Fighter
Human Knight <= me
pathfinder alchemist - may be retconned into another character for balance
Halfling Rogue
useless cleric


so I can't won't bring in another beat stick, I do a better job at making those characters, and don't wanna step on anybodys toes

so my favorite role (big beefy guy that smacks people) is out

I have several rogue's rolled up
we have one already

I don't want to purposefully make the cleric player look useless by bringing in a combat cleric

leaving
d4 casters
support bard
and the monk

and to be honest, I'm kinda likeing the monk idea, just so I can finally play one and get a feel for how much I like/dislike the class

I played a monk in the past in a ridiculously high-powered game and it was a blast, highlights were taking a guy's warhammer and chucking it offa mountian, and judo-throwing several baddies

but I digress

[dark.sun.druid]

I'm very interested in this too, as I am strongly considering building a monk as my next character. It seems like, if played well and with enough AC and SR, a monk could be a pretty powerful character.

[MeeposFire]

Then don't be support, but go out and kick everyone's asses! Bards have the potential to be great frontliners, along with being generally brilliant. (Though maybe I'm biased.)

I 100% agree. Bards can support and kill at the same time. Easiest way is to be a warblade or crusader multiclass with bard and pick up the song of the raven feat. This allows you to start inspire courage as a swift action allowing you to buff and deal lots of damage (heck if people do not respect you just give yourself the buffs and watch them get jealous).

Now monks are not that great unless you really tweak them out or fix some of their issues. For one their mechanic for eking out more attacks requires full attacks and yet their class is built to be more of a skirmisher type that runs around hits somebody and runs away. This causes problems. Further you are best served getting size bonuses to your unarmed strikes and you need to find out the best ways to get enchantments for your unarmed strike (I like battlefists). The biggest problem is the flurry and enchanting the unrarmed strike, deal with those two and the monk does a lot better.

My personal fix for flurry involves making it work like the snap kick feat in TOB. When you make an attack on your turn (whether it be an attack action, full attack action, or a maneuver) you can choose to take a -2 penalty on all attacks this round and make an extra attack. At level 5 the penalty goes down to -1 and at level 9 it goes away. At level 11 you can make two extra attacks. This allows you to play an effective skirmisher and makes spring attack an actually good feat for you, whereas before it was a trap.

For enchantments see if you can get a necklace of natural attacks (savage species), battlefists (eberron campaign setting though you will need the heavy arms graft from faiths of eberron to use it without being a warforged), brass knuckles from PF, or ask your DM to homebrew a solution such as ki straps or the like.

[Greenish]

It seems like, if played well and with enough AC and SR, a monk could be a pretty powerful character.

True enough in many parties, given that power is relative. Monk isn't very conductive for gaining high AC, though.

[MeeposFire]

True enough in many parties, given that power is relative. Monk isn't very conductive for gaining high AC, though.

I don't know, you can get a lot of bonuses on monk AC that you cannot get from armor. However doing so might not be worth it in the end.

[BenInHB]

Straight Monk = Not so good

Monk + Other Stuff = Lots of fun

I played a Monk lvls 1-6 and then went Fist of Zuoken (Psionic Fist in SRD) for levels 7 and 8

The first 5 levels were alright, i had fun but everyone in the party was better than me at pretty much everything except running and grappling. It became my job to chase down anyone fleeing that we needed to interrogate or just didn't want warning his buddies. Stunning Fist wasn't all i thought it would be, my advice is use them up early, don't worry about saving them.

At level 6 things got a lot more fun, I got Improved Trip and Wild Talent (2pp and use of Expansion) Midway through the level I started using a Deep Crystal Guisarme I took from a defeated Psywarrior and just ate the -4 for non proficiency, i was using it to trip anyway and all that takes is a touch attack. After tripping on Attacks of Op i would 5ft step and flurry unarmed strikes while they were prone. This worked pretty well since i could be pretty much anywhere i wanted on the battlefield between my high movement and high tumble score.

One i started the Psionic Fist levels and started grabbing powers i quickly caught up to the rest of the parties power level. Actually i wish i would have gone Monk2/PsychicWarrior6 instead to start getting powers sooner.

Stat wise I went WIS, DEX, CON, STR, INT, CHA
if i could change them i would go STR, WIS, CON, DEX, INT, CHA
STR is so important for actually hitting in melee as well as tripping and grappling.

If you tend to be one of the more powerful players in your group and want to give the other players a chance to shine while you are great at really random stuff monk is good for that.

I had a lot of fun playing one.

[Volos]

I am not allowed to play monks anymore because my knowledge of the 3.5 combat rules is such that I cannot be defeated by even an overwhelming challenge by the time I hit 6th level. Before that I still have some use for my fellow party members. I think my combo for my Monk used to be something along the lines of trip weapon + improved trip + extra attacks + stunning fist... the DM got so fed up with the effectiveness of my Monk that he sent a Dwarf Centaur after us with Earth Heritage along with a ton of other feats. (Basically a +20 to his check before taking his Str into account) I still knocked him flat and was able to knock him out without much trouble.

[MeeposFire]

Another good "monk" build is to use the tashalatora feat from eberron (secrets of sarlona) which allows you to combine your favorite psionic class with your monk abilities. Helps monks a lot and is very flavourful and fun.

[stainboy]

In a party this melee-heavy, monk would be a good way to give yourself a unique niche. Try to get the Pathfinder monk, it's way better. Most of the disdain for monks on this board is about the 3.5 monk's medium BAB.

That said, 3.5 monks have usually been the best performing non-casters in my games, but the way I build encounters just rewards mobile grapplers with good saves.

[Greenish]

Most of the disdain for monks on this board is about the 3.5 monk's medium BAB.

Most of the distain comes from monk's unsynergetic jumble of class features that look cool but don't really do damn.

[Jallorn]

I haven't played a monk, but I do have two things to add:

1. Since monks are kinda supposed to be crazy uber-men, your DM is likely going to permit crazier stunts with the monk. I don't mean he'll make it easier, but anything that a normal person wouldn't consider, he might permit you to try. Monk+creativity adds a degree of power usually that most ignore.

2. You can probably get enchanted clothes that give you a nice armor bonus and is (I believe) cheaper than Bracers of armor. Also allows the other armor enchantments. This is, however, subject to your DM's approval, but it does offset a lot of the monk's low AC squishiness.

[nedz]

You seem to have a fairly low op party so a monk should be fine.
If you max out your stealth skills you should be able to scout with the rogue.
Standard trick here is to use your speed to stealth up to the enemy casters and then close (idealy within 10'); but will your parties beat sticks give you the time to get into position ?

The problem is optimising them to do damage.
They are very MAD so Str normally gets dumped !
You have to optimise hard to get damage comparible to a low op beat stick

High AC is possible, but again you have to work at it.

You have manouvrability, you should play on this.

The monk in the game I run seems to do very well, but then the party is very scouty.

[MeeposFire]

In a party this melee-heavy, monk would be a good way to give yourself a unique niche. Try to get the Pathfinder monk, it's way better. Most of the disdain for monks on this board is about the 3.5 monk's medium BAB.

That said, 3.5 monks have usually been the best performing non-casters in my games, but the way I build encounters just rewards mobile grapplers with good saves.

Unfortunately it does not solve the biggest problem of being terrible on a move and attack which is what most of their class features are built towards (and then there is flurry which makes you want to stand and fight). If a monk can get enchantments for their unarmed attacks then they are no less accurate than rogues and the like and those are usually considered decent.

Also bracers of armor are the same price as armor enchantments and they can be enchanted with armor enchantments (that rule is in the arms and equipment guide). Combine that with one of the many robes with armor bonuses you can get some nice AC and get armor enchantments.

[Runestar]

Don't bother with monk, he gets completely outclassed by a single spell - summon nature's ally.

[Doodleface]

I had a great time playing a monk in a mostly unoptimized party.

We had:

Paladin
Rogue
Cleric
Sorcerer (of the blasty-blast variety)
Monk (Me)

My druid died at level 7, so I rolled up a monk. (Don't judge, it was all of our first characters, and first time D&Ding)

I was a Dwarf, 32 point buy. Most point's actually in Dex.
I had a blast though most of the time. We had a very good DM, a family friend of one of the players who had been DMing longer than any of us had been alive. That was most likely a huge factor in the fun I had, but I still had fun. And that's really what matters isn't it?

[Lateral]

Another good "monk" build is to use the tashalatora feat from eberron (secrets of sarlona) which allows you to combine your favorite psionic class with your monk abilities. Helps monks a lot and is very flavourful and fun.

Support. The flavor of the Psychic Warrior is quite similar to the flavor of the Monk's ki if you think about it, and the two synergize incredibly well. Psychic Warrior will give you massive buffs, and Monk will give you Unarmed Strike power and a few goodies. A simple build would be just Monk 2/ Psychic Warrior 18.

That said, monks can be just fine in low-op parties. Be clever with your abilities and you'll do fine.

[Greenish]

The problem is optimising them to do damage.
They are very MAD so Str normally gets dumped !

Under no circumstances do this. Wisdom only determines the save DCs of Stunning Fist (if you take it) and AC, but Dexterity has more benefits and also boosts armour. Strength is the prime stat for boosting damage and grapple.

Don't bother with monk, he gets completely outclassed by a single spell - summon nature's ally.

There are nine spells to that name, to nitpick.

[LOTRfan]

There's a few feats in a Githzerai-oriented Dragon article, and you don't have to be Githzerai to take them. One allows you to hit a spellcaster so hard, they can't cast spells for I-don't-remember-how-many rounds.

[big teej]

could you guys please stop finding things I forgot to put in the OP

we don't use psionics, none of us have read the rules enough to be comfortable with it.

that said

I like the suggestions I'm hearing.

and I'm encouraged by the fact that many of you seem to have had fun playing a monk.

tactics should be fairly negotiable, we tend to let the rogue sneak up ahead (when possible/conducive to terrain)

[MeeposFire]

Strength is a good ability score to have but you get more damage by bringing in size enhacnements. Two can be done by feats alone (imp nat attack and shape soulmeld+open greater chakra) which improve your medium size monks damage to 6d6. If you can get battlefists (which requires the heavy arms graft) can get to 8d6 and if you are a kalashtar there is a dragon shard that will improve it to 12d6 damage.

[Greenish]

If you can get battlefists (which requires the heavy arms graft)

Heavy Arms Graft (Faiths of Eberron) or being warforged (ECS/MMIII), which is probably the best 0 LA race for a monk anyhow. The standard composite plating doesn't count as armour for monk abilities, but can be enchanted as such. The Battlefist (ECS) gives a virtual size increase for monk's unarmed damage and allows for easy enchanting (and special materials) for your weapon.

So, in one stroke, warforged has addressed two of the weaknesses of the monk.


The redundant immunities of a warforged monk can be traded for handy abilities with the AFCs in City of Stormreach (page 121).

[Hawk7915]

What level are you guys playing at? I have yet to play a Monk, but I've seen some played in campaigns. Those campaigns didn't get past level 6, but the monk did very well (even as the primary front-liner) in many of those campaigns. The option of attacking twice while everyone else swings once (with way less feat investment than a TWF) is handy, and the monk's great saves and Evasion are awesome. I have a sneaking suspicion that as other classes get more feats, better BAB, etc the Monk really starts to find himself outclassed even in the lowest optimization environments. A monk and a fighter at 3rd level only have a 1-pt attack difference. A monk and a fighter at 9th level have at least a 3-pt attack difference, plus the fighter has way more feats to spend on ways to improve his accuracy or damage. And the fighter isn't even very good.

So if your party is still under level 6, I'd recommend Monk. I'd also recommend you make Strength your best stat to make sure the attack/damage gap isn't too wide with the other frontliners. The monks I've seen that rocked had a 17 or better Strength; the ones who failed tried for that whole "High Dex/Wis super AC" build which made them tricky to hit but fragile and worthless in a fight. In combat, either scout ahead for casters or rogue-types to assassinate, or volunteer to mop up mooks while the big guys fight the ogres and dragons.

If your party is at level 6 or higher, I think I'd have to recommend the blaster-sorcerer. It'd be the most beneficial thing for the party, giving them arcane support, ranged support, crowd control, elemental damage, and potentially buffs.

[MeeposFire]

I think we are trying to think long term. Indeed most melee classes are good 6th level and before. It is the levels after that we are worrying about.

[Lateral]

Yeah, monk can be pretty decent until level 6. After that, I suggest PrCing out. Taking a couple levels of a divine class and then taking Sacred Fist 10 (Complete Divine) is loads of fun, and you won't overshadow the cleric because you're not a full caster. Like the Tash Monk, the divine class is there for buffs.

[Dimers]

tactics should be fairly negotiable, we tend to let the rogue sneak up ahead (when possible/conducive to terrain)

The party rogue will love your stunning fist. See if you can get your DM to let you have this feat from the MM:

ABILITY FOCUS (GENERAL)
Choose one of the creature’s special attacks.
Prerequisite: Special attack.
Benefit: Add +2 to the DC for all saving throws against the special attack on which the creature focuses.

My experience playing a monk: had fun, but was clearly not as effective in play (and I was probably the best optimizer in that group).

[Hawk7915]

I think we are trying to think long term. Indeed most melee classes are good 6th level and before. It is the levels after that we are worrying about.

Yeah, although I don't think we need to go totally overboard either. This is a party with two straight-class fighters, were Pathfinder Alchemist might get banned for being OP . Something tells me a character swinging 12d6 fists of death will not be appreciated in this party.

A silly build if you want to do something besides smack things with your fists would be to be a Raptoran or Dragonborn Monk. Take Fiery Fist, Hover, and Flyby Attack so you can eventually take Ki Blast and pummel people for 3d6+wis force damage. You're like a crappy warlock who knows Kung Fu!

[mabriss lethe]

Is Tome of Battle allowed?

If so there, there's hope for a monk character.

1-the most often repeated statement on monk threads and I hate to say it, but will anyway, just so no one else has to bother: Play a swordsage (preferrably the Unarmed SS adaptation) They manage to maintain the monk-esque mystique while being a solid contributor to nearly any party.

2- Should you opt to take monk anyway, a monk gets a really good boost from feats like snap kick and martial study/martial stance, since it gives them better options in combat.

Everyone else has already done a good job of covering the highs and lows of the Monk. In short: They're decent survivors in D&D, but the game does not reward survivors.