Spells for toying with the enemy?

[Qwertystop]

I'm trying to build a spellcaster (No Tier 1 allowed) who prefers spells to mess with his enemy, instead of just blasting them. Even Charm/Dominate are out, I'm looking for spells to mess with their minds, toy with them, make them go insane without [i]Insanity[/] spells...
OK, maybe that last was an exaggeration .
Anyway, I'm trying to figure out 2 things. The first is: Is there any spellcaster or ACF who isn't tier 1, but has a greater amount of spells known than a Sorcerer?

Secondly, can you list some good spells (With where to find them) for the above purpose?

I have 2 sets: The Image (Silent, Minor, etc) spells and the Mind of Another spells, but those aren't enough even for a Sorcerer's spells known.

[Jarian]

Sounds like you want a Beguiler (PHB2).

[ExtravagantEvil]

Well, if you want that. Beguiller. A well done class that focuses on manipulation and illusions and what not. It is listed as a solid Tier 3 and is exactly what you're looking for. .

[Qwertystop]

Well, if you want that. Beguiller. A well done class that focuses on manipulation and illusions and what not. It is listed as a solid Tier 3 and is exactly what you're looking for. .

I looked, but the fixed spell list doesn't really work. Just for example, the Mind of Another spells I mentioned in my first post aren't on it. Some of the spells on the list are good for this character, but many are related to sneaking, which is not at all the point.

[Necro_EX]

I'd say go with some heavy transmutation. Since you're to go without charm spells and such transmutation can be a pretty damned nice way of messing with enemies.

Just looking at the phb alone, you've got plenty of options here.

First off, cantrip, message, can be used creatively to such an effect.

First level doesn't have much for ya, animate rope and erase both have some potential, but are not so useful.

Second level has a couple that can be used to this effect. You've now got whispering wind, message but better, you've got alter self, rope trick, and pyrotechnics. All of these can definitely be used to mess with an enemy if employed correctly. Rope trick and alter self are probably the two easiest to imagine ways to use, but pyrotechnics basically requires your enemies to have a thing for fire to begin with, so its usefulness is rather context-sensitive.

Third level gives you a couple decent ones to pick from. Water breathing can allow you to feign your own death pretty effectively, gaseous form can allow you to sneak right past most enemies and then use alter form on the other side of them to assume the form of something unsettling, now apply either fly or blink for full effect. :D

Fourth level only has three transmutation spells that work well for messing with an opponent, but they're pretty decent. Stone shape, first off, is pretty nice if you're in your enemy's territory. Change chunks of their walls to resemble their body pierced by a hundred spears, or to resemble the face of their worst enemy, etc...The other two at this level are enlarge and reduce person, mass. They're now small and you're now large, simple but effective.

Fifth level has transmute mud to rock and rock to mud, which have to be taken together to really be useful to mess with anyone. Otherwise, they're basically minor hindrances. Now, if you can get an enemy to fall into a mudhole you've made with rock to mud, you can seal them in solid stone with mud to rock.

Sixth level only has stone to flesh, but that can be pretty messed up in some cases. Again a very context sensitive case, but recall the guy you just trapped in stone? Now he's trapped in flesh.

Seventh level has reverse gravity. That's just a nifty spell on its own, but I'm sure you can think of a couple ways to use that to your advantage.

Eighth level gives you a pretty damned good spell in polymorph any object. That rod the enemy's holding? It's now a handful of snakes. This one's pretty flexible and can be used in nearly any situation.

Ninth level you get shapechange and time stop. These are both pretty damn nasty on their own, but definitely can be useful with all these previously mentioned spells and any other spells you may have picked up along the way.

...and that's all just straight from phb 1. Searching other sources specifically for transmutation is bound to reveal some really nasty ones, too. I also dig necromancy and illusion for messing with enemies.

[mootoall]

Doesn't Beguiler get Advanced Learning?

[Ajadea]

Enchants and Illusions only, Mind of an X is Transmutation, though I think it fits better as Enchantment.

[Qwertystop]

Lots of great spells

Thanks, those seem really good. I knew the spells, but I never thought of a lot of those uses.

Enchants and Illusions only, Mind of an X is Transmutation, though I think it fits better as Enchantment.

Why would I need to stick to certain schools?

[Amnestic]

Doesn't Beguiler get Advanced Learning?

It does indeed. 5 times in total if you take it to 19.

[tcrudisi]

Ajadea was responding to the post directly above him/her where mootoall was pointing out about Advanced Learning - a Beguiler class feature that lets you learn any enchantment or illusion spell not on the class list. Since Mind of an X is a transmutation spell, you cannot learn it with Advanced Learning from Beguiler.

The first thing you said was, "I'm trying to build a spellcaster (No Tier 1 allowed) who prefers spells to mess with his enemy, instead of just blasting them. Even Charm/Dominate are out, I'm looking for spells to mess with their minds, toy with them, make them go insane without [i]Insanity[/] spells..."

Well, that's perfect for the Beguiler. Heck, when I read that, I immediately thought Beguiler. It's a tier 2 (though someone else said 3, so that might be correct) caster who isn't limited like a Sorc. If it's on the spell list, they can cast it. And their entire spell list is devoted to messing with people's minds, toying with them, and generally just making them go insane. It doesn't have the Mind of an X set, though, which I've honestly never heard of. If it's a Cleric spell, I can also suggest going Beguiler into Rainbow Servant which is a PrC that at level 10 gives you all Cleric spells as spells known. Due to the way Beguilers work, they can spontaneously cast all spells known. The PrC is wonderful for a Beguiler, but I do remember they lose a couple of spellcasting levels (3?).

I'd give more advise but I don't play 3.5 any more. However, take a good look at the Beguiler. Flavor-wise, it fits everything you asked for. Sure, it doesn't have that spell set you were talking about, but isn't there a feat you can take to add it to spells known? Or perhaps go Rainbow Servant. Or something. I don't think you will find anything else that's closer to what you want.

[Qwertystop]

Yeah, Beguiler is seeming better and better.
Mind of an X spells are Wizard/Sorcerer spells, Transmutation school, Mind-Affecting descriptor. Can't get them with Advanced Learning. One is 4th level, the other is 7th. Anyone know how I might get them with Beguiler? Those two spells are ones that I really want on my list, cause I have so many good ideas for them.

[tcrudisi]

I'm going off memory when I haven't played 3.5 in at least a couple of years, but I thought there was a feat that let you add a spell to your spells known? You would have to take the feat twice (once for each spell), but it's an option.

[Qwertystop]

I'm going off memory when I haven't played 3.5 in at least a couple of years, but I thought there was a feat that let you add a spell to your spells known? You would have to take the feat twice (once for each spell), but it's an option.

If anyone can find that feat, it would be great, but I've never heard of it. (Not that that means much, I'm new to D&D)

[Amnestic]

If anyone can find that feat, it would be great, but I've never heard of it. (Not that that means much, I'm new to D&D)

Extra Spell (ComArcane, pg. 79/80) lets you learn one extra spell at one level lower than your maximum. It even states that "Extra Spell is generally used to learn a specific spell that the character lacks access to and would be unable to research."

Seems like it's ideal for you.

[Qwertystop]

Extra Spell (ComArcane, pg. 79/80) lets you learn one extra spell at one level lower than your maximum. It even states that "Extra Spell is generally used to learn a specific spell that the character lacks access to and would be unable to research."

Seems like it's ideal for you.

Perfect! Thanks, everyone!

[Ilmryn]

For, spells known, I'd recommend shi'ar, from dragon compendium, if you have access to that. It can cast any spell it has ever seen, which pretty much solves the spells known issue. However, it doesn't have an official tier, so it may very well be considered tier 1.

[paddyfool]

You mean Sha'ir. Shiar are a bunch of almost universally annoying aliens from the Marvel universe.

[Lord.Sorasen]

I could have sworn there was an alternate beguiler class feature that let you learn other spells... I think it was actually warmage, though :[ Can anyone confirm this?

[The Glyphstone]

Make sure to pick up Bigby's Slapping Hand if possible. It has devastating synergy with Luminous Horde (Beguiler spell), and it lets you pimp-slap your enemies from a distance.

[Flickerdart]

I could have sworn there was an alternate beguiler class feature that let you learn other spells... I think it was actually warmage, though :[ Can anyone confirm this?

Eclectic Learning, IIRC. Works like Extra Spell, except the spell is learned as one level higher than it actually is (thus, Mind of Another would be an 8th level spell).

Also, it seems that Mind of Another would be better used turned on yourself or an ally - a leShay has absurd mental scores, after which you can Mindrape the right personality back. Int 33, Wis 23, Cha 47 for 3500 XP? Count me in.

[sreservoir]

I could have sworn there was an alternate beguiler class feature that let you learn other spells... I think it was actually warmage, though :[ Can anyone confirm this?

eclectic learning, yes; warmage, yes.

[Jarian]

eclectic learning, yes; warmage, yes.

Not at all unreasonable to ask your DM for, however. Eclectic Learning is what I thought Advanced Learning always should be.

[BiblioRook]

Isn't a Warmage a completely other class? (Simuler concept but completely different direction)

Also, as for getting access to spells that aren't on your list, would it be possible to make a Mind of X Runestaff?

[Darwin]

Rather than spending feats on those Mind of Another spells there's runestaves from MiC that lets you cast the spells on them using your own spellslots. Talk to your DM about making one with the spells you'd like voila! Feats left to be spend on something better (metamagics, most likely).

[The Glyphstone]

Isn't a Warmage a completely other class? (Simuler concept but completely different direction)

Also, as for getting access to spells that aren't on your list, would it be possible to make a Mind of X Runestaff?

They both get Advanced Learning as a class feature though. It's fairly common for people to suggest that since Warmages can transform Advanced Learning into Eclectic Learning, Beguilers can do the same thing for their Advanced Learning.

[Flickerdart]

To be fair, Warmage is a whole tier under Beguiler, so it can use the extra boost. It's still not a powerful enough feature to bump anything up a tier, though.