The Bottle-of-Air-and-Bag-of-Holding Gambit

[BladeofOblivion]

So, something came up in a game yesterday.

I was blocking off a dangerous area of the setting to the players using two High-CR guards and a well-defended Gatehouse. This area happened to be the fortress of the Big Bad, who happens to be the 'Evil' king in a rather stereotypical game. Anyway, this fortress screams "5 levels higher or you will die."

So, of course, my players each bought a Bottle of Air and the Wizard bought an extra Bag of Holding. Then they bribed a (already treasonous) royal courier to carry them in and hide them in the castle while they hid in the bag. They avoided the usual risk of suffocation in a Bag of Holding using the Bottles of Air. Luckily, the time set aside for gaming ended there.

As a result, I have no idea what to do. I took a very top-down approach to the game, allowing for a minimum of railroading. Of course, they naturally go for the places I keep blocked off because the basic encounters in there cause TPKs. They had a clever plan to get in, but I'd rather not let them kill the CR 19 Big Bad at level 10. Just Curbstomping them kills the game, and throwing a spanner in the works will look like obvious railroading.

Anyone have any ideas?

[woodenbandman]

Has it been established that the badguy is there? Maybe he's not there. Maybe he has errands to run, kingdoms to subjugate, etc. Maybe they are walking up to the badguy's door and they hear him screaming in rage, something about a traitor in their midst, and the alarm is sounded.

Maybe the traitor left them some helpful hints about object X that they can destroy that will give them an edge in the campaign.

[Godskook]

Money does *NOT* buy you everything.

1.Is this royal courier capable of lying to the party?

2.Is this royal courier accountable to anyone? If so, whom?

3.Are there 'customs' that must be breached, which 'unsearched bags' won't get through?

4.Anyone on the border possess detect magic as a spell, spell-like, or supernatural ability?

[Skeletor]

You could always arrange for an arrest and escape scenario, that makes it clear that they bit off more than they could chew.

Perhaps they get rescued by the local 'resistance' while being transported to some prison of doom. Perhaps they will have to work off their debt to the resistance for their rescue that will keep them out of the higher level dungeons and into something more suitable to their level.

[Worira]

By a strict interpretation of the rules for the Bag of Holding, living creatures inside one just suffocate in 10 minutes, and the amount of air remaining is irrelevant, as is the number and size of the creatures.

This is a stupid jerk ruling, mind, so don't actually use it.

[Chilingsworth]

Well, you could have another (not very bright) guard find the bag, determine it to be an empty bag and toss it (outside the castle.)

You could have said stupid guard find it and use it to carry trash (or empty chamberpots into) Basically, do something that causes their character to be covered in filth.

Or you could have the bag identified as magical (of an unknown nature) and put in a secure room (or well-locked adamantine chest) for safekeeping. Let the wizard rest and prepare planeshift to get out of the extradimentional space of the bag. Unfortunately, since you can't really specify your destination with planeshift, they wont be inside the castle anymore.

[BladeofOblivion]

Has it been established that the badguy is there? Maybe he's not there. Maybe he has errands to run, kingdoms to subjugate, etc. Maybe they are walking up to the badguy's door and they hear him screaming in rage, something about a traitor in their midst, and the alarm is sounded.

Maybe the traitor left them some helpful hints about object X that they can destroy that will give them an edge in the campaign.

Yeah, the King made a Royal Decree not an hour prior, and returned to the castle.

The problem with sounding the Alarm is either that the Traitor is killed, causing the players to be stuck in a bag until they die, or a TPK from the enemies in there. (The Wizard, for some reason, didn't take Teleport.)

Not entirely sure what the last one would solve.

You could always arrange for an arrest and escape scenario, that makes it clear that they bit off more than they could chew.

Perhaps they get rescued by the local 'resistance' while being transported to some prison of doom. Perhaps they will have to work off their debt to the resistance for their rescue that will keep them out of the higher level dungeons and into something more suitable to their level.

By a strict interpretation of the rules for the Bag of Holding, living creatures inside one just suffocate in 10 minutes, and the amount of air remaining is irrelevant, as is the number and size of the creatures.

This is a stupid jerk ruling, mind, so don't actually use it.

Well, you could have another (not very bright) guard find the bag, determine it to be an empty bag and toss it (outside the castle.)

You could have said stupid guard find it and use it to carry trash (or empty chamberpots into) Basically, do something that causes their character to be covered in filth.

Or you could have the bag identified as magical (of an unknown nature) and put in a secure room (or well-locked adamantine chest) for safekeeping. Let the wizard rest and prepare planeshift to get out of the extradimentional space of the bag. Unfortunately, since you can't really specify your destination with planeshift, they wont be inside the castle anymore.

Naturally, there are three more posts while I type my response. These are good ideas. (Except for the RAW ruling.)

The party is only level 10, so they don't know planeshift. However, I quite like the filth Idea. If they try again, I will politely explain why they shouldn't.

Thanks, guys.

[Chilingsworth]

Yeah, the King made a Royal Decree not an hour prior, and returned to the castle.

The problem with sounding the Alarm is either that the Traitor is killed, causing the players to be stuck in a bag until they die, or a TPK from the enemies in there. (The Wizard, for some reason, didn't take Teleport.)

Not entirely sure what the last one would solve.

Maybe giving the party something to show for their efforts without having them face the BBEG? S0 they don't feel you Deus Ex'ed them?

If the wizard didn't take teleport, what about the cleric? He/she should have access to planeshift. You'd need planeshift to get out of an extradimensional space. So, if you just put them into a situation where their only other option is to stay in the bag untill they die, the cleric could get them out.

EDIT: So, no cleric in the party? Oh well, at least you've solved your problem, congrats! Be sure to let us know how it works out!

[MeeposFire]

Just because the courier was bribed does not mean he will do as told. Would you like to do a PC captured encounter? The courier could give the PCs to the enemy and then the enemy could have fun by putting them through gladiatorial games or imprisonment (which leads to escape adventures). Heck have the party face the big bad and have that big bad have a reason to take them alive and then force them to escape (or do the BBEG bidding). You have lots of options.

[PretzelKing]

have they already hopped out of the bag somewhere in the keep? if not, maybe the courier decided to dump the party somewhere else, worrying more about his own skin if he were caught sneaking in a threat..

[gbprime]

How do you feel about a little side trip to the Astral Plane?

The bag weighs either 35 or 60 pounds, so the Courtier kind of has to LUG it into place, not stroll casually. A guard stops him, asks him to open the bag, he refuses, guard pokes the bag with a spear.

if sharp objects pierce it (from inside or outside), the bag ruptures and is ruined. All contents are lost forever.

And by "lost forever", we mean "catapulted into the Astral Plane." Could be quite a few game episodes before they manage to get back to the correct world in the prime material.

[BladeofOblivion]

Maybe giving the party something to show for their efforts without having them face the BBEG? S0 they don't feel you Deus Ex'ed them?

If the wizard didn't take teleport, what about the cleric? He/she should have access to planeshift. You'd need planeshift to get out of an extradimensional space. So, if you just put them into a situation where their only other option is to stay in the bag untill they die, the cleric could get them out.

EDIT: So, no cleric in the party? Oh well, at least you've solved your problem, congrats! Be sure to let us know how it works out!

Yeah, they're fairly new to the game. As in: This is the first time they have played. As for the explanation of their fairly clever tactics, It seems my friends are a little brighter than I usually give them credit for. Still, one would think that it was obvious that a Cleric would be useful...

Since I forgot to mention earlier, the party consists of A Dwarven Fighter, a Human Ranger, an Elven Fighter (Set up as an archer) and an Aasimar Wizard. In retrospect, it was probably a Bad Idea to watch The Two Towers right before character creation.

Just because the courier was bribed does not mean he will do as told. Would you like to do a PC captured encounter? The courier could give the PCs to the enemy and then the enemy could have fun by putting them through gladiatorial games or imprisonment (which leads to escape adventures). Heck have the party face the big bad and have that big bad have a reason to take them alive and then force them to escape (or do the BBEG bidding). You have lots of options.

PC captured encounters, in my experience, secretly annoy both the DM and players. Maybe its just me, however.

[Chilingsworth]

How do you feel about a little side trip to the Astral Plane?

The bag weighs either 35 or 60 pounds, so the Courtier kind of has to LUG it into place, not stroll casually. A guard stops him, asks him to open the bag, he refuses, guard pokes the bag with a spear.



And by "lost forever", we mean "catapulted into the Astral Plane." Could be quite a few game episodes before they manage to get back to the correct world in the prime material.

Oh! Maybe you could have them meet other adventurers who tried the same trick (and likewise are now stranded on the Astral Plane.)

[Chilingsworth]

Yeah, they're fairly new to the game. As in: This is the first time they have played. As for the explanation of their fairly clever tactics, It seems my friends are a little brighter than I usually give them credit for. Still, one would think that it was obvious that a Cleric would be useful...

Since I forgot to mention earlier, the party consists of A Dwarven Fighter, a Human Ranger, an Elven Fighter (Set up as an archer) and an Aasimar Wizard. In retrospect, it was probably a Bad Idea to watch The Two Towers right before character creation.

First time they played and they started at 10th level? Or have they made it that far from level 1 and failed to realize clerics are useful. If the later, I'm guessing it would be hard to give them too little credit for brightness.

EDIT: Also, if they all went into the the bag of holding, um... how did they plan on getting out, exactly? I mean, the bag can't open itself, and they can't interact with it since they're in an extradimensional space.

Again...

[BladeofOblivion]

First time they played and they started at 10th level? Or have they made it that far from level 1 and failed to realize clerics are useful. If the later, I'm guessing it would be hard to give them too little credit for brightness.

EDIT: Also, if they all went into the the bag of holding, um... how did they plan on getting out, exactly? I mean, the bag can't open itself, and they can't interact with it since they're in an extradimensional space.

Again...

Well, Perhaps it would be better to say first Campaign. It started at level 8. The one playing the Wizard was as familiar with the Core books as you can get without actually playing the game. The rest decided to play classes with less micromanagement.

Also, the Courier was supposed to open the bag before he left, not necessarily removing them from it. The game ended as they were being carried in, so I'm just going to toss a mishmash of the ideas presented here. Should be amusing, unless I accidentally go Insane into Killer DM mode.

[SiuiS]

Curb stomp them!
Seriously. If you have a note that says "BBEG, 19HD, then thaw what they elected to go fight. Dumbing it down for them is bad. Let them run off if they think of it (easily understandable; you don't get to be evil overlord without people running away and spreading word of how awesome you are every now and again, and what are the odds they'd have the chutzpah's to break in again after getting curbstomped? ;) ) but otherwise, big bad evil guys are just that. If he's not big (stronger than most), bad (as in, not good for PC health), and evil, then he's just a guy in a fort that's waiting to be XP harvested.

[BladeofOblivion]

Curb stomp them!
Seriously. If you have a note that says "BBEG, 19HD, then thaw what they elected to go fight. Dumbing it down for them is bad. Let them run off if they think of it (easily understandable; you don't get to be evil overlord without people running away and spreading word of how awesome you are every now and again, and what are the odds they'd have the chutzpah's to break in again after getting curbstomped? ;) ) but otherwise, big bad evil guys are just that. If he's not big (stronger than most), bad (as in, not good for PC health), and evil, then he's just a guy in a fort that's waiting to be XP harvested.

Well, It's not like I put up a gigantic sign that says "High CR Here. Do not disturb."

It's not unreasonable to try to kill the Big Bad as soon as it looks like he's alone. The only guards they fought were in a border fort and were powerful, but not TPK-inducing.
Plus, Nobody really likes to do a prison adventure and a TPK isn't fair unless they are doing something REALLY stupid with knowledge of the consequences..

[MeeposFire]

Curb stomp them!
Seriously. If you have a note that says "BBEG, 19HD, then thaw what they elected to go fight. Dumbing it down for them is bad. Let them run off if they think of it (easily understandable; you don't get to be evil overlord without people running away and spreading word of how awesome you are every now and again, and what are the odds they'd have the chutzpah's to break in again after getting curbstomped? ;) ) but otherwise, big bad evil guys are just that. If he's not big (stronger than most), bad (as in, not good for PC health), and evil, then he's just a guy in a fort that's waiting to be XP harvested.

I prefer figuring out ways to teach them the lesson of there are enemies to powerful to fight but have them live to remember it. The question is how since the OP does not like captured! quests.

[WarKitty]

For future reference, we have a houserule that in order to put it in a bag of holding, it has to be something that you could fit through the opening of a reasonably sized bag.

[Jack_Simth]

The party is only level 10, so they don't know planeshift.

Is there a Cleric in the party? It's a 5th level spell for them... and Clerics know their entire list.

[BladeofOblivion]

Is there a Cleric in the party? It's a 5th level spell for them... and Clerics know their entire list.

Already covered:

Since I forgot to mention earlier, the party consists of A Dwarven Fighter, a Human Ranger, an Elven Fighter (Set up as an archer) and an Aasimar Wizard. In retrospect, it was probably a Bad Idea to watch The Two Towers right before character creation.

[Jack_Simth]

Already covered:

Ah. Hmm... well, there's always Dismissal, if the Wizard has that one. Or they could puncture the bag and end up on the Astral.

[Kobold Esq]

Just have them get discovered in the castle, have a running combat, and eventually resulting in them fleeing in some dramatic fashion when they realize they are out matched.

Even if the kings guards are only level 7 or 8, enough of them will quickly overwhelm the party if they use reasonable tactics. Also, hitting them with lots of attacks (from many soldiers) but for low damage per attack will make it easier for you to not accidentally TPK the party.

Assuming they aren't fight to the death types, and assuming they think you are willing to kill them if they go where they shouldn't, they should get the picture.

Sure they will manage to kill a lot of guards in the process, which means they will earn some XP for their endeavor, but in the end they should be chased out. (Make sure to give them an avenue to escape. You are correct that capture scenarios are never any fun)


Bonus: The King now has an excuse to tighten security and lash out reprisals upon the innocents.

[Knaight]

In this case, the PCs have to lose, unless they get extremely lucky. However, nonlethal damage can allow them to survive losing, and if you want to avoid the standard prison break, they can always wake up after having been sold to slavers, and having been bought by a benefactor who suspects that they almost pulled off an assassination, who attempts to point them at a different target. They will have lost, they will have known they lost, and they can even get a figure for the approximate monetary gain that the BBEG got out of them losing. It doesn't end the campaign, but does provide a nice setback.

[BladeofOblivion]

Hmmm...

I'm liking some of these Ideas. I can just use the same CR 7 Border Guards I used before instead of the CR 13 Royal Elite Guards.

Then, have Harry the Dull Guard use the bag to clean up trash. When he dumps the bag out over the waste receptacle, he is greeted by 4 startled Adventurers, each 2 levels higher than him. Since he isn't armed, he punches out a small amount of Nonlethal damage before being curbstomped.

Now, with a dead guard, they have two real options:

1: Try to sneak out (The Ranger has a high enough modifier to maybe pull this off. The Wizard has Invisibilty prepared. The Fighters are doomed.)

2: Run, Run, Run!

The third option is to go for the King, which will quickly degenerate into Option 2.


If they manage to escape, good for them! Now they are going to be considered criminals by the local Government, forcing them to flee for now.
If they don't quite escape, nonlethal damage lets them be sold to slavers, then bought, etc.

Win-Win!

[Knaight]

I would probably use one of the CR 13 guards for Harry the Dull Guard, for the simple reason that the amount of nonlethal damage fits better, given the goals set out. However, the plan in general is very much approved of.

[Chilingsworth]

Tis' a good plan!

[Lord Loss]

Make the fort level appropriate, let them explore it and fight whatever monsters lay within. After a while, have them stumble upon a dark, nefarious plan and present them with an opportunity to destroy it. Once that's done, have the infuriated BBEG (slightly toned down) return from someone (that has to do with his nefarious plot) and give them a chance to escape.

To show that their actions have consequences:

-BBEG sends waves of assassins against the PC.

- If the nefarious plot gets ruined/suffers from setback , good. If not, then they have the evil/nefarious plot to deal with after.

- Interesting interaction with the traitor. Perhaps he gets murdered or reprimanded. Perhaps he is maimed and sets out to kill the PCs. Or maybe he turnsin the PCs to the BBEG.

[Reluctance]

If you think the PCs found this plan on the internet, turn it into the escape scenario mentioned above. Simply being able to get into a place doesn't mean you'll be able to handle whatever's there.

If this is honestly the players thinking up a clever idea, reward them for it. Have said traitorous NPC point them at some MacGuffin of the BBEG's, while noting that a frontal assault is suicidal. The players get a small victory and the chance to set evil plans back, while going after a target less heavily fortified than the head honcho himself.

[Aspenor]

If the area really SCREAMS "get higher level first" and they went in anyway, just hit them with whatever you had planned in the area. When they die, explain to them that they ignored the hints and bypassed their chance to find out facts through divination.

They screwed up. They can reroll and try again.