A New Way To Balance Tiers: Character Modification Points

[wayfare]

Hey all:

This is a revised version of an idea I had a few months ago. Character Modification Points (CMPs) are (hopefully) a means of enhancing lower-tier classes during character creation. The idea is to give lower tier classes more options during the character creation process, allowing them to buff stats, gain bonus feats, and even take unusual races.

*Disclaimer: The CMP sub-system builds on JaronK's excellent tier system for classes. If you are unfamiliar with it, you should take a look here: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boa...p?topic=1002.0

1) CMPs are applied during the character creation process, after your stats are determined (be it by point-buy or rolling).

2) Each player begins play with 12 CMPs, which they can spend on a multitude of features. The 1st use of CMPs is to determine the Maximum Tier Access the character gains.
Maximum Tier Access means exactly that -- once you purchase access to a tier, you can ever gain access to the classes in tiers above what you purchased.

Tier 1: 12 points (all your build points)
Tier 2: 10 Points
Tier 3: 8 Points
Tier 4: 5 points
Tier 5: 2 Points
Tier 6: Free

A character who buys Access to Tier 1 can take ANY classes in the game: He could build a Wizard 7/Beguiler 3/Fighter 10. Or he could go Wizard 20. The only advantages to purchasing Tier 1 access are

1) The freedom to make any build you want
and
2) Access to the most powerful and versatile classes in the game

A character who spends 8 CMPs to purchase access to Tier 3 classes is limited in the classes he can take levels in -- he can never gain levels in Tier 1 or Tier 2 classes. Thus, this character could play a Beguiler 7/Rogue 7/Spellthief 6 but NOT Rogue 17/Wizard 3.

If you have remaining CMPs after choosing your class access, you can spend them on many different enhancements to your character: This is the primary reason you wouldn't purchase Tier 1 access.

Your remaining CMPs can be spent as follows:

1 CMP adds 1 to an attribute
1 CMP grants 1.5 feats (.5 only redeemable if you purchase more than 1 feat)
2 CMPs buys off 1 point of Racial Level Adjustment
1 CMP grants (Level x 500) gp worth of equipment
X CMPs add 1 level X spell slot to the characters spells per day.

Advanced Options

X CMPs add a level X spell to your spell list. If you are a spellcasting class, this need not be a spell from your natural spell list (a Beguiler could learn fireball in this way, a Sorcerer could learn cure light wounds).
If you do not belong to a spellcasting class you gain the ability to cast the spell once per day as a Spell-Like ability. All spell variables treat your character level as your caster level.
You may never spend CMPs on a spell you cannot cast at creation. If a game begins at level 1, the character cannot learn a level 3 spell like fireball.
1 CMP buys access to one level 0 spell. You can use this spell 1 + Intelligence modifer times per day if it is an arcane spell or 1 + Wisdom modifier times per day if it a divine spell.

3 CMPs grant the character limited healing ability. This functions similarly to the paladins lay on hands ability, save that the character can only use this healing upon himself. The character can restore (Constitution Modifier x Hit Dice) health points to himself each day.

CMPs can be spent to augment a familiar, animal companion, or paladin mount in exactly the same way as a PC.

CMPs are NOT spent to take Prestige Classes. Prestige classes are somewhat outside of the tier system, providing a way for players to make cool
changes to their characters even when locked into a tier. Basically, if you meet the reqs for a prestige class, you can take it.

1 CMP increases the characters leadership score by 2. If the character has the leadership feat, this bonus is applied as an external modifier. If he does not hove the leadership feat, he has whatever leadership score this feature gives him. The character may never gain a leadership modifier exceeding twice his level.

2 CMPs increase your effective caster/manifester level by 1. You must declare what this increase modifies -- divine, arcane, or psionic powers.

...more to come

[wayfare]

Example 1: A Mighty Theurge

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Stan is creating a very powerful mystic for a Level 10 campaign that will deal heavily with creatures from beyond the far reaches of space and time.

After rolling his stats (18, 10, 8, 15, 16, 10) Stan decides that a Wizard/Cleric mix can be done. Because both of these classes are Tier 1, Stan spends all of his CMPs on purchasing access to Tier 1. As a result, his character has a great deal of power, but is a normal human in terms of his attributes:

Steven Strange: Human Wizard 3/Cleric of Agammoto 3/Mystic Theurge 4

Strength: 10
Dexterity: 8
Constitution: 10
Intelligence: 18
Wisdom: 16
Charisma: 15

Steven may very well be the most powerful member of his party, though he seems downright human next to a Half-Dragon Barbarian that can buff his Strength to 33 without any external help...

Example 2: A Versatile Ninja

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Bob Kane is creating a character for a level 4 campaign that focuses on fighting crime in a once marvelous, but now failing city. Bobs previous character, a Factotum, gave him a lot of options...but Bob feels that his new character should be a bit more streamlined, more closely geared towards evasion and combat.

Bob rolls his stats, earning a 16, 14, 12, 17, 13, 15

With all that in mind, Bob decides that the Ninja is just the right thing for him. Nothing on Tier 3 interests him much, so Bob spends 5 CMPs and sets his Maximum Tier to 4.

Keeping the Ninjas Dual Stat requirement of Wisdom and Dexterity, Bob assigns his base stats:

Str: 13
Dex: 17
Con: 12
Int: 14
Wis: 16
Cha: 15

Bob now has 7 CMPs to play with. He immediately decides that Dexterity should be a priority, and Spends 3 CMPs to bump his dexterity to 20. When his DM inquires as to the nearly supernatural dexterity, Bob responds that his character was raised by circus folk to be a master gymnast.

With his remaining 4 CMPs, Bob decides that he needs to get a few pesky feats out of the way. He spends 2 CMPs to purchase 3 feats, gaining: Weapon Finesse, Acrobat, and Able Learner. The DM arches his eyebrow at Able Learner, but Bob quickly explains that his character was adopted by a wealthy vigilante after his circus was massacred by raiders. The vigilante provided Bob's character with the best tutors to train his eventual replacement.

With 2 CMPs left, Bob decides that his character should be well equipped for crime-fighting, seeing as he is heir to a fortune. The remainder of Bob's CMPs go towards purchasing 4000 gp worth of equipment (plus the standard WBL).

Bob's end result is:

**** Grayson: Human Ninja 4

Strength: 13
Dexterity: 21 (+1 by level/+3 CMPs)
Con: 12
Int: 14
Wis: 16
Cha: 15

Feats: Weapon Finesse, Able Learner, Acrobat, Combat Reflexes, Improved Unarmed Strike, and Deflect Arrows

+9500 gp worth of equipment.

more coming...

[wayfare]

Thoughts, criticism, concerns -- feel free to post them!

[Mando Knight]

This should go here.

[Waker]

3 CMPs grant the character limited healing ability. This functions similarly to the paladins lay on hands ability, save that it can only be used upon the character. The character can restore (Constitution Modifier x Level) health points to himself eachday.

I would suggest the amount is (Constitution Modifier X Hit Dice). It's a small change, but would be applicable to a character using a savage progression for a monstrous race.

I would also think the CMP for buying attributes may be better off being exchanged at a rate of 1.5. I haven't taken the time to crunch the numbers, but a 1:1 exchange just seems really weak to me.

The use of CMP to buy extra skill points might be useful as well.

[Chess435]

1 CMP grants (Level x 500) gp worth of equipment

Why don't you just go 10% WBL? It seems more balanced for higher level characters. To prevent low-level characters from getting the short end of the stick, state that level 1-3 characters get a flat 500 gp.

[GoatToucher]

2 CMPs buying of an LA seems pretty low to me. A level for the equivalent (in this system) of 1000gp?

[Hawk7915]

1 CMP buys access to one level 0 spell. This spell can be used an unlimited number of times each day.

I would recommend you strongly reconsider this, as it means that (out of combat) it's always better for a warrior type to buy access to Cure Minor Wounds at will then purchase the healing power; this can also be infinite Guidance pre-combat, or infinte Create Water to destroy many economies.

[Waker]

I would recommend you strongly reconsider this, as it means that (out of combat) it's always better for a warrior type to buy access to Cure Minor Wounds at will then purchase the healing power; this can also be infinite Guidance pre-combat, or infinte Create Water to destroy many economies.

A more workable idea would be 1 + (Int, Wis or Cha mod)/day. At character creation you decide which stat determines your SLA.

[wayfare]

A more workable idea would be 1 + (Int, Wis or Cha mod)/day. At character creation you decide which stat determines your SLA.

Thats probably much more workable. I'll make the changes.

Thanks for the input, guys -- keep it coming!

[Waker]

A random though occured to me. Now this one isn't great, but has some applications, mostly for the lower tier characters (4 and higher).
For every 2 CMP spent, you get +1 hp per HD. Meaning that a hypothetical Fighter could spent 10 CMP to get +5 hp at each level. At character creation he would have (10 + 5 + Con) and at each level he would gain (1d10 + 5 + Con).
Once again, not amazing but it does help address the scaling of health/damage ratio that many upper level characters have to deal with. At higher levels monsters gain access to an increasingly larger strength modifier and number of attacks, while the melee combatants struggle to stay in the positives.

[Chess435]

A random though occured to me. Now this one isn't great, but has some applications, mostly for the lower tier characters (4 and higher).
For every 2 CMP spent, you get +1 hp per HD. Meaning that a hypothetical Fighter could spent 10 CMP to get +5 hp at each level. At character creation he would have (10 + 5 + Con) and at each level he would gain (1d10 + 5 + Con).
Once again, not amazing but it does help address the scaling of health/damage ratio that many upper level characters have to deal with. At higher levels monsters gain access to an increasingly larger strength modifier and number of attacks, while the melee combatants struggle to stay in the positives.

Just spend the points to increase your CON score.

[Waker]

Just spend the points to increase your CON score.

Oh I know, I just threw the idea out there as a pitch. I could have said that for each 1 CMP you spend you get 1 hp, which is obviously more powerful, but I felt that I should work my way up to that.

[wayfare]

Ok, made some edits:

Expanded "Advanced Options"

Included samples of use

Any questions or criticism is welcome!

[wayfare]

I would suggest the amount is (Constitution Modifier X Hit Dice). It's a small change, but would be applicable to a character using a savage progression for a monstrous race.

I would also think the CMP for buying attributes may be better off being exchanged at a rate of 1.5. I haven't taken the time to crunch the numbers, but a 1:1 exchange just seems really weak to me.

The use of CMP to buy extra skill points might be useful as well.

1.5 for attributes might not be a bad idea, but I'd like to see some math for it.

Skill points were part of the original system, but the able learner feat gives you 5 skill points for 1 feat, so i thought it best to let that stand as the way to earn extra sp.

Would anyone be interested in trying this out as the basis for a campaign?

[Aharon]

I agree that 2CMP for 1 LA is too little.

On the extreme end, I could play a Sharn Mystic Theurge and still have 2CMP left over.

[Glimbur]

The system is different for characters starting at level 3 and reaching level 10 in game versus characters starting at level 10. Specifically, starting at 10 means you can get better spells or more gold for your CMP's. Because of how WBL scales I would not take any money via CMP's.

I am not sure how to fix this issue.

[wayfare]

I agree that 2CMP for 1 LA is too little.

On the extreme end, I could play a Sharn Mystic Theurge and still have 2CMP left over.

You could? Using beguiler or warmage, right?

I've received this criticism multiple times, but haven't really known how to deal with it. LA seems to power up exponentially, so that many LA 3 races are damn near gods while LA 1 races have something like +2 to 2 stats and electricity resistance 5.

I think that increasing the cost based on the LA purchased might not be a bad idea, though. Does this work:

Buy off 1 LA: 2 points
Buy off 2 LA: 5 points
Buy off 3 LA: 8 points
Buy off 4 LA: 12 points

[wayfare]

The system is different for characters starting at level 3 and reaching level 10 in game versus characters starting at level 10. Specifically, starting at 10 means you can get better spells or more gold for your CMP's. Because of how WBL scales I would not take any money via CMP's.

I am not sure how to fix this issue.

This is somewhat intentional -- wealth is probably the least useful expenditure of CMPs, but its there to give equipment-reliant characters better items for their level. A +2 Sword in the hands of a fighter means a lot at level 4.

An alternative would be to grant the character a steady income dependent upon their level, something like:

1 CMP = a steady income of (Level x 2) gp per month.

[Gnaeus]

Example 2: A Versatile Ninja

Spoiler

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Bob Kane is creating a character for a level 4 campaign that focuses on fighting crime in a once marvelous, but now failing city. Bobs previous character, a Factotum, gave him a lot of options...but Bob feels that his new character should be a bit more streamlined, more closely geared towards evasion and combat.
Bob's end result is:

**** Grayson: Human Ninja 4

Bob chose...poorly. Not only is ninja usually considered a tier 5, not 4, even at 4, he could have done much better. For example:
***** Grayson: Marrulurk Ninja 1.
CP:2 to buy off Marrulurk LA
4 for 6 extra feats. (Weapon Finesse, TWF, Darkstalker, Craven, +2 others)
1 for +1 dex

That is a MUCH MUCH higher set of attributes, for a vastly more powerful character.

Or assuming that Ninja is actually T5

Grayson: Pixie Ninja 4 (+Weapon Finesse, TWF, Darkstalker)

Do you really want to be dealing with permanently flying, greater invisibilitied ninjas doing sudden strike damage with each of their multiple attacks per round at level 4?

I think that the LA adjustment is by far the most powerful option for most levels of play, followed by feats.

Yes, tier 1s are awesome, especially at high levels, but at level 1, a Gravetouched Ghoul Dread Necromancer or a Half-Ogre Warblade is going to be devastating.

This is somewhat intentional -- wealth is probably the least useful expenditure of CMPs, but its there to give equipment-reliant characters better items for their level. A +2 Sword in the hands of a fighter means a lot at level 4..

For 4 points? No way. He would be better off taking 4 extra points of strength, which gives +2 to hit and damage with every weapon he uses. He would be MUCH better off as a Goliath with Power Attack, Bull Rush and Shock Trooper for free.

[wayfare]

Example 2: A Versatile Ninja

Spoiler

Show

Bob chose...poorly. Not only is ninja usually considered a tier 5, not 4, even at 4, he could have done much better. For example:
***** Grayson: Marrulurk Ninja 1.
CP:2 to buy off Marrulurk LA
4 for 6 extra feats. (Weapon Finesse, TWF, Darkstalker, Craven, +2 others)
1 for +1 dex

That is a MUCH MUCH higher set of attributes, for a vastly more powerful character.

Or assuming that Ninja is actually T5

Grayson: Pixie Ninja 4 (+Weapon Finesse, TWF, Darkstalker)

Do you really want to be dealing with permanently flying, greater invisibilitied ninjas doing sudden strike damage with each of their multiple attacks per round at level 4?

I think that the LA adjustment is by far the most powerful option for most levels of play, followed by feats.

Yes, tier 1s are awesome, especially at high levels, but at level 1, a Gravetouched Ghoul Dread Necromancer or a Half-Ogre Warblade is going to be devastating.



For 4 points? No way. He would be better off taking 4 extra points of strength, which gives +2 to hit and damage with every weapon he uses. He would be MUCH better off as a Goliath with Power Attack, Bull Rush and Shock Trooper for free.

I am amused at the thought of nightwing as a pixie. You have made my day.

Do you think the gold bonus should be taken out entirely, or modified something like this:

Level 1-3: (Level x 500 gp)
Level 4-6: (Level x 750 gp)
Level 7-9: (Level x 1000 gp)
etc.

Also, i recently suggested a modification for LA -- does it do the job?

[Hawk7915]

It's looking like you really ought to get rid of the LA buyoff rule. Even avoiding the most broken examples and disallowing template buyoff, an exotic race is at least always a better deal than a straight statistic boost:

- Most spellcasters and rogue types will gain more from Tiefling than they would by just buying +2 Int or +2 Dex.
- Most Paladins and divine casters will gain more by buying Aasimar than buying +2 Wis or +2 Cha.
- Any dex-loving class gains more by just being a Hobgoblin.
- Any strength-based class gains more by just buying Goliath.

[LeshLush]

Because the disparity between the tiers starts low and grows as characters level, I wouldn't give out all CMPs at the beginning of character creation. Let characters from lower tiers gain access to their CMPs gradually as they level up.

[Gnaeus]

I am amused at the thought of nightwing as a pixie. You have made my day.

Do you think the gold bonus should be taken out entirely, or modified something like this:

Level 1-3: (Level x 500 gp)
Level 4-6: (Level x 750 gp)
Level 7-9: (Level x 1000 gp)
etc.

Also, i recently suggested a modification for LA -- does it do the job?

_________
I think that increasing the cost based on the LA purchased might not be a bad idea, though. Does this work:

Buy off 1 LA: 2 points
Buy off 2 LA: 5 points
Buy off 3 LA: 8 points
Buy off 4 LA: 12 points

[/QUOTE]


It is a lot better. Instead of Half Ogre Warblades, you get Goliath Warblades & 1/2 ogre Barbarians. More likely, what you might see is people buying off the first level of an LA race, if that is legal. (Gravetouched ghoul (which is an LA+2 template, with 1 level buyoff) Dread Necromancer 3 instead of Human DN 4, for example)

The 4 LA option is unlikely to see much use. No amount of LA fixes the fact that you are a commoner.

The 3 LA option is still a much better option for tier 5s than stat buys. A fighter could spend 8 points for Str +8, or 8 points for half dragon, getting Str+8, +4 NA, +2 Con, Int, Cha, and some other nice toys.

[NichG]

One problem I see is that people could use the 'PrCs are tierless' thing to break this and be an effective Tier 1 with 12 CMP.

For instance, take some Tier 6 initial class, go until you can take the Chameleon PrC, take ten levels of Chameleon and be a spellcaster level 20 Wizard and Cleric on top of whatever you started with.

Edit:

For relative balance between the various expenditures, I think the LA buyoff is fine and should probably be the meter stick to determine the rest. Tier 1s are very potent, so it takes a good boost to catch others up. I would spread these out across levels, because the gap between Tier 1 and other tiers also widens across levels, so you want this to be used to pace people.

I'd make it 2 ability points per CMP, which is potent, but not versatile (the main issue with Tier 1s vs other tiers) - maybe with a max of 6 points to any stat if someone potentially becoming a natural Str 40 monk bothers you. The feats are fine as is.

Maybe allow CMP to be spent to boost BAB up to a max of full BAB?

I'd ditch the gold thing, unless you want to make it so CMP spent there represent a gold source that scales with level (perhaps a character with CMP spent there earns an extra 5% of his WBL per game per point from his external holdings?)

Also, I think the Lv0 SLA is fine. Infinite out of combat healing isn't that hard to get anyhow, and practically infinite out of combat healing is the equivalent of a goldpiece bonus.

[Cyrion]

2) Each player begins play with 12 CMPs, which they can spend on a multitude of features. The 1st use of CMPs is to determine the Maximum Tier Access the character gains.
Maximum Tier Access means exactly that -- once you purchase access to a tier, you can ever gain access to the classes in tiers above what you purchased.

Tier 1: 12 points (all your build points)
Tier 2: 10 Points
Tier 3: 8 Points
Tier 4: 5 points
Tier 5: 2 Points
Tier 6: Free

(Snip)

A character who spends 8 CMPs to purchase access to Tier 3 classes is limited in the classes he can take levels in -- he can never gain levels in Tier 1 or Tier 2 classes. Thus, this character could play a Beguiler 7/Rogue 7/Spellthief 6 but NOT Rogue 17/Wizard 3.

Wouldn't this just reinforce the power gap between tiers? No option you present for other uses of CMPs even comes close to the versatility and utility of a class's worth of options, particularly for the better tiers. This would prejudicially pummell anyone who doesn't spend the points for Tier 1 or 2.

Note that this isn't an argument for everyone always including a Tier 1 class in their builds. However, if you limit the ability to climb this particular "social ladder" you're needlessly imposing obstacles.

I think that a better way to balance this would be to award CMPs at every level, with lower tiers getting more points, so that if you take a level in Wizard you may not get any CMPs, but if you take a level in Rogue you get 6 (or however many, depending on how fast you want the power advancement for that particular campaign).

[Last Laugh]

One problem I see is that people could use the 'PrCs are tierless' thing to break this and be an effective Tier 1 with 12 CMP.

For instance, take some Tier 6 initial class, go until you can take the Chameleon PrC, take ten levels of Chameleon and be a spellcaster level 20 Wizard and Cleric on top of whatever you started with.

I'm not fully understanding how level 10 chameleon is the same as level 20 wizard, Are there shenanigans involved?

[randomhero00]

Not to pop your bubble, but heh, we already do that CP (character points). With a huge binder full of options.

edit: meant to the OP. Also, don't ever buff leadership. Ever.

[Last Laugh]

Not to pop your bubble, but heh, we already do that CP (character points). With a huge binder full of options.

edit: meant to the OP. Also, don't ever buff leadership. Ever.

What things do you use that aren't listed? Any glaring balance issues given previous experience?

[wayfare]

Wouldn't this just reinforce the power gap between tiers? No option you present for other uses of CMPs even comes close to the versatility and utility of a class's worth of options, particularly for the better tiers. This would prejudicially pummell anyone who doesn't spend the points for Tier 1 or 2.

Note that this isn't an argument for everyone always including a Tier 1 class in their builds. However, if you limit the ability to climb this particular "social ladder" you're needlessly imposing obstacles.

I think that a better way to balance this would be to award CMPs at every level, with lower tiers getting more points, so that if you take a level in Wizard you may not get any CMPs, but if you take a level in Rogue you get 6 (or however many, depending on how fast you want the power advancement for that particular campaign).

As per your 1st point, if you want access to all tiers, just use all your CMPs for maximum versatility.

The CMPs are most useful for eliminating things like "Feat Tax" -- if you want to build your Uber-Charger fighter or barbarian, it is much easier to attain the feats you need by expending CMPs.

CMPs won't give each class the ability to cast spells or otherwise gain the useful features that make the tier 1 classes so powerful. What they do is make it easier to establish the potent builds for your own class or favored build. This is also why the system does not account for Prestige Classes -- you can gain spellcasting through PrCs if you really want it, and thus gain the ability to shift tiers.

You idea for CMPs/level intrigues me. I might work something like it out.