Incantatrix: Really overpowered?

[Gorgondantess]

I always see Incantatrixes getting a lot of flak about "Persisting every single spell OMGWTFBBQ", etc. But is it really so powerful?
First of all, we're looking at this as the actual, true incantatrix, yes? I realize the one in Players Guide to Faerun is horribly, horribly broken. I don't care. So were a lot of things in 3.0 that we also don't use anymore. It has been errata'd out of existence. It is not a class. By RAW, you cannot take it and get its sweet, sweet cheese.
So: what's so OMGWTFBBQOP about the incantatrix? I mean, I realize that it allows SOME metamagic abuse... but it's only as bad as divine metamagic, and for 10 levels, not 1 feat. Sure, it's powerful. So is the archmage, and you never see people freaking out about that. Do most people just not know the one on the Wizards website is there?
So, nevermind. I got the wrong class.

[arguskos]

According to my books, PGtF was printed in 2004, and Magic of Faerun was printed in 2001. That makes the PGtF Incantrix the most recent, and therefore legal, one.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You've got it backwards, the one you linked from Magic of Faerun is the 3.0 version, the one in Player's Guide to Faerun is the 3.5 update. Magic of Faerun has a copyright date of 2001, the 3.5 Player's Handbook was first printed July 2003, and PGtF was first printed March 2004. The broken PGtF version is the current one, everything you said about it being invalid and out of date can instead be applied to the version you linked.

[Urpriest]

I'm fairly certain you've been told before that that's not the class. That article is from 2001. Player's Guide to Faerun was 2004. The most recent update has things like Metamagic Effect that generally lead to abuse.

[Khatoblepas]

The PGtF version is the latest version, it isn't 3.0, it's 3.5.

It is powerful because of full casting, metamagic mitigation, and metamagic effect, and metamagic on existing spells, and metamagic on other people's spells, and metamagic on your dog, and metamagic feats every christmas.

It got more powerful than the 3.0 version. Cower.

Metamagic Effect Persisted Cower.

[Gorgondantess]

Wow. That's just messed up. And I've used that one all the time when... damn.
Okay, yeah, Incantatrix is horribly, disgustingly broken. I'd just kindof assumed that since that one was more reasonable- and on the wizards website, no less- it was the right one.

[Optimator]

Wow. That's just messed up. And I've used that one all the time when... damn.

No worries; people make this mistake all the time. I think this is the third post I've seen on the very subject ("How is Incantatrix overpowered? I don't see it") in recent memory.

[Dead_Jester]

No worries; people make this mistake all the time. I think this is the third post I've seen on the very subject ("How is Incantatrix overpowered? I don't see it") in recent memory.

Even there, the MoF one is nothing to sneeze at. It is still strictly better than a normal Wizard, and the entrance is almost free (the only thing is the abjuration specialization), and you still get a bonus feat, some abilities, metamagic reducer and free metamagic twice per day.

[valadil]

Even the version you linked is pretty damn powerful. Not broken, but definitely overpowered.

3 metamagic feats are nothing to sneeze at. I've had casters that would take the class for that. The ethereal stuff is cool but not amazing. Unlike Improved Metamagic, which IS amazing. Instant Metamagic is cool too. Oh and you're also immune to death effects and energy drain attacks? Doesn't have anything to do with the class, but why not just throw that in there for the hell of it? I don't care that the 3.5 version is better, this incantatrix is still badass.

[Gorgondantess]

Even the version you linked is pretty damn powerful. Not broken, but definitely overpowered.

I disagree. I suppose it depends on your definition of overpowered, but when you take into account that the 1st 5 levels are nigh useless (and precede taking a different PrC), it's no better than an archmage.

[faceroll]

I disagree. I suppose it depends on your definition of overpowered, but when you take into account that the 1st 5 levels are nigh useless (and precede taking a different PrC), it's no better than an archmage.

It's marginally better than straight wizard for 5 levels. Only high point is level 8 ability. Bummer having to be an abjuration specialist, but luckily you can learn spells from banned schools before you enter.

[valadil]

It's marginally better than straight wizard for 5 levels.

Forgot to mention before, but I played Incantatrix as a sorcerer. It's a hell of a lot better than one of them for 5 levels.

[HMS Invincible]

Would you start taking incantrix as early as possible? I was really tempted by this build where you give up your familiar for abrupt jaunt, and then give up the ability to scribe scroll w/ your bonus feats from being a wizard in order to get augmented summoning. Then at 5th level, you go and take incantrix in order to get all a bunch of metamagic feats instead of the bonus feats you gave up.
So,>
Wizard 1 = Abrupt Jaunt+ augment Summoning. Lose familar and scribe scroll.
Wizard 2.
Wizard 3.
Wizard 4.
Wizard 5. +2 DC to dispell my Summons
Incantrix the rest.
From now on, I get the rest of the enhanced summoner class features AND metamagic feats from being an incantrix. Any good?

[Douglas]

Okay, yeah, Incantatrix is horribly, disgustingly broken. I'd just kindof assumed that since that one was more reasonable- and on the wizards website, no less- it was the right one.

That one's only on the web site because pretty much every book had something from the book shown as an excerpt on the web site, and for Magic of Faerun they happened to choose Incantatrix for the excerpt. It is in no way an official errata or anything similar, it's just content from a book released online for a little marketing. Also if you look at the url you should notice it includes a date, and that date is in 2001, well before 3.5's release.

So, I guess the lesson to take from this is to check dates before assuming which version of something is the current official one.

3.0 Incantatrix is good, especially at class level 8. 3.5 Incantatrix is insane almost from level 1.

[Urpriest]

Would you start taking incantrix as early as possible? I was really tempted by this build where you give up your familiar for abrupt jaunt, and then give up the ability to scribe scroll w/ your bonus feats from being a wizard in order to get augmented summoning. Then at 5th level, you go and take incantrix in order to get all a bunch of metamagic feats instead of the bonus feats you gave up.
So,>
Wizard 1 = Abrupt Jaunt+ augment Summoning. Lose familar and scribe scroll.
Wizard 2.
Wizard 3.
Wizard 4.
Wizard 5. +2 DC to dispell my Summons
Incantrix the rest.
From now on, I get the rest of the enhanced summoner class features AND metamagic feats from being an incantrix. Any good?

Metamagic isn't all that awesome for a summoner really. I'd probably go with Malconvoker or Master Specialist for a summoner instead.

[Vladislav]

Well, 3.5 Incantatrix is strictly better than taking more Wizard levels. And anything that's strictly better than a Tier 1 class is definitely OP, I think we can all agree on that.

[Gorgondantess]

Well, 3.5 Incantatrix is strictly better than taking more Wizard levels. And anything that's strictly better than a Tier 1 class is definitely OP, I think we can all agree on that.

No, I don't think we can. The fact is, any fullcasting PrC is strictly better than just taking wizard levels. Thus, things like Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil is OP, sure... and so is lame stuff like alienist. Which isn't that weak, alright, but it's the only one I could think of off the top of my head.

[Vladislav]

No, I don't think we can. The fact is, any fullcasting PrC is strictly better than just taking wizard levels. Thus, things like Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil is OP, sure... and so is lame stuff like alienist. Which isn't that weak, alright, but it's the only one I could think of off the top of my head.

You seem to have neglected to take entry requirements into account. Iot7V, while being awesome once you enter it, requires three normally subpar feats as prereq. Therefore, it's not strictly better than straight Wizard. Incantatrix doesn't even have this token problem.



As an aside,

Spoiler

Show

it is a common mistake on this forum to judge character performance on level 20 only. But before you get to level 20, you need to spend some time on level 1, and level 2, and level 7, etc... in this particular case, you're spending some time on low-to-mid levels with subpar feats such as Skill Focus: Spellcraft.

So maybe the end result of Iot7V is better than a straight Wizard 20, but if you take snapshots during their careers, there will be plenty of points where the straight wizard is better. Because he didn't spend feats on Skill Focus: Spellcraft and similar atrocities.

[Optimator]

Iot7V is trivial to get into. Master Specialist (Abjuration).

[Tyndmyr]

Even there, the MoF one is nothing to sneeze at. It is still strictly better than a normal Wizard, and the entrance is almost free (the only thing is the abjuration specialization), and you still get a bonus feat, some abilities, metamagic reducer and free metamagic twice per day.

In very limited builds, it might be better to the generally more powerful version. Why? Metamagic reducer a level early. If you're tight on levels, it can be worth it.

But yeah, PGtF one is generally better. However, I will point out that the entry requirements are fairly steep. Banning a school is not to be taken lightly, especially if you're already a specialist, or focused specialist. Foc Spec is generally considered very good, but banning four schools is rather painful.

So yeah, it is a big dose of power, but with a notable price tag. And, provided you share out the persisted buffs with the party, not actually an unbalancing class. Provided the player enjoys helping out the entire team, it makes for a fun game.


Iot7V, even with Master spec entry still trades off feats. Yes, that reduces the cost, but it doesn't eliminate it. Abjuration is a pretty bad thing to go for GSF in. And lets not forget all the spells known. While not a major factor for a wizard, the class is an absolute pain to enter as a spont caster.

[Dead_Jester]

In very limited builds, it might be better to the generally more powerful version. Why? Metamagic reducer a level early. If you're tight on levels, it can be worth it.

I was not saying that the MoF one is stronger, I was just saying that is is better than strait wizard (which is pretty easy to beat). Overall, it is essentially weaker than the newer one, but it is still powerful enough that if it was used instead of the new one, it would still be very attractive.

And yes, banning 4 schools can be harsh, but then again, Enchantment, Evocation are givens, and both Necromancy and Illusion aren't that painful to lose.

[Gorgondantess]

And yes, banning 4 schools can be harsh, but then again, Enchantment, Evocation are givens, and both Necromancy and Illusion aren't that painful to lose.

Illusion is painful to lose if you have banned evocation. Losing all 4 is almost crippling.

[Draz74]

Though losing Necromancy really isn't a big deal if you get to cherry-pick the best low-level spells (i.e. up to Enervation) before you ban it. Higher-level Necromancy is pretty lackluster, especially in Core or for a good-aligned character type.