Swiss army knife - factotum/binder question

[Kaww]

I want to play a Swiss army knife class. I was thinking whether to play factotum 5/chameleon 10 or binder 8/KotSS 5/binder x. Any suggestions, ideas or advices.

Also which class is great at doing everything?

I know that wizard is the ultimate I can do anything better than you. Tier 2 or 3 is what I'm aiming for, and I enjoy optimizing.

[TroubleBrewing]

Wizard/Cleric is good at everything. With regards to your previous build, I believe that Factotum 15 is strictly stronger than Fac5/Chameleon 10.

[Kaww]

With regards to your previous build, I believe that Factotum 15 is strictly stronger than Fac5/Chameleon 10.

Would you explain why, please. Haven't seen ether in action and I want to try them out. But what I see is by lvl 15 both divine and arcane spellcasting (caster level 20, max spell lvl 6) and +6 to two attributes vs extra actions and ignoring DR.

EDITED: Also the changeable feat is CRAZY good if you know how to use things like that.

[TroubleBrewing]

Factotum gets some pretty excellent abilities if you stick with the class. Chameleon basically grants some similar stuff, which you'd get anyway for staying with Factotum. My opinion is basically just personal experience, both actual and theoretical. Better to ask someone who has actually crunched the numbers, but that's my take.

[Kaww]

Factotum gets some pretty excellent abilities if you stick with the class. Chameleon basically grants some similar stuff, which you'd get anyway for staying with Factotum. My opinion is basically just personal experience, both actual and theoretical. Better to ask someone who has actually crunched the numbers, but that's my take.

Which one did you enjoy more and why? If you don't mind me asking.

[Escheton]

You need factotum. Because yes. 3 lvls will do.
You need warblade. Because you want to be proficient in everything without donning some stupid mask.
You need wizard, because options.

Smack in some elf paragon for more skillpoints, neat stuff and better hitdie then a wizard.

Top it off with some JPM and you have yourself an Elf army knife.

[Person_Man]

What ECL are you playing at?

Low levels favor heavy multi-classing. Some combination of Binder 1, Incarnate 3-4, Totemist 2, Factotum 3, Swordsage 2, etc.

Mid levels favor full casters and Prestige Classes. Wizard 5/Full Caster PrC X, Whatever 5/Chameleon X, Binder 1/Sorcerer 4/Anima Mage X, and so on.

High levels favor full progression along one path. Wizard 5/Full Caster PrC X/Different Full Caster PrC Y, Factotum 20, Incarnate 20, etc. You sometimes have a level or two to work in another class, but for the most part you want fully scaled spells/powers/etc.

Key break levels:

• Marshal 1: Cha to any 1 set of checks (usually Dex, Str, or Cha).
• Factotum 3: Brains Over Brawn (Int to Str & Dex)
• Factotum 8: Cunning Surge (Extra Standard Action)
• Factotum 19: Cunning Brilliance (Mimic class abilities)
• Binder 1: Naberius (Faster Healing, Diplomancy)
• Binder 3 (with Improved Binder feat): Paimon (Whirlwind Attack, Dance of Death)
• Binder 10 (w/feat): Desharis (infinite Animate Objects), Zceryll (Psuedonatural Template, infinite Summon Monster, level determined by your Binder level, so it's usefulness goes all the way up to Binder 17).
• Totemist 2: Totem chakra (Lots o' natural weapons, mobility buffs).
• Incarnate 3: 3 soulmelds, 1 chakra bind, Expanded essentia capacity (Enough essentia and capacity to boost almost any Skill by +10ish. Also lots of interesting defensive and options).
• Full Caster 7: 4th level spells, the point at which they tend to completely overtake the usefulness of 99% of Skill checks.
• Chameleon 1: Floating bonus feat.
• Chameleon 5-7: 4th level spells from any list (Paladin, Blackguard, Ranger, Prestige classes, etc).

I could go on. But really it depends on my first question - what ECL do you expect to play at?

[Kaww]

What ECL are you playing at?

Most likely 3 to 20.

I don't want to be a full caster. Since I am a bit OP as a bard in a party with optimized tier 1 characters.

As I said I wish to play something like Factotum or Binder. Something that will surprise my fellow players and leave them wondering what am I playing. DM will not be surprised.

Yes, the other players don't know what these classes are and what they do. The character is supposed to be the party's crafter starting at mid levels (Binder) or at low levels (Factotum). And also party's face, which I always play.

I am aware that this is not the optimal use of these classes. I want to know which one stands a better chance at being useful in combat, dungeon breaking, item creation and social parts of the game.

Also I'm intrigued that the pure factotum is better than factotum/chameleon. Why is this?

[WhatsWithCanada]

Generally speaking, factotum 8/chameleon7 is seen as solid. Chameleon gives you a +4 untyped int bonus (so juicy as a factotum), while factotum gives you multiple standard action to use those chameleon spells. Throw in some late level warblade and you can do multiple strikes in a round as well.

Since half of your other levels are also initiator levels, you end up with 6th level maneuvers, 5th? (afb) level divine AND arcane spells of ANY class, and int to everything under the sun. Pretty freaking versatie if you ask me.

[avr]

Re the binder - KotSS makes you a better fighter at the expense of versatility. You have to bind the vestige you specified for KotSS. If you want to be a Swiss army knife it's not you, it's more of a bowie knife by comparison.

[mabriss lethe]

The Chameleon/Factotum Breakdown.

Factotum 8/Chameleon 7 will be better than Fact 5/Ch 10. You lose a little on the casting this way (5th instead of 6th level spells), but you gain Cunning Surge, which is possibly one of the best class features in the game. You trade inspiration points for extra standard actions. You also still net Double Aptitude and a +4 bonus to a stat of your choice (more than likely intelligence.) If you really want, you can go Fact 10/Ch 10 and have a very respectable character.

As for the question of who makes the better swiss army knife? Any of them in the right set of circumstances. With the Binder, you need to know in advance what role you're going to assume. If you stick primarily to Chameleon spellcasting and have a good selection of spells, you have a rather nice toolbox for problem solving. Straight factotum has the benefit of being the most flexible option, if not the most powerful.

[Kaww]

Re the binder - KotSS makes you a better fighter at the expense of versatility. You have to bind the vestige you specified for KotSS. If you want to be a Swiss army knife it's not you, it's more of a bowie knife by comparison.

I was thinking of choosing Balam as my favorite vestige. Reroll every four rounds and twice in a roll once is great if you want to do everything without being too good at everything. That was my reasoning. Gaze, some flat bonuses and weapon finesse don't hurt ether.

[Person_Man]

Also I'm intrigued that the pure factotum is better than factotum/chameleon. Why is this?

Factotum/Chameleon is a solid build.

But in my opinion the primary benefits of the Chameleon are the floating bonus Feat and the spells, which are drawn from every class list. (In particular, half casters like the Paladin, Blackguard, Assassin, Ranger, and various PrC tend to have very potent 3rd and 4th level spells. Cleric domain spells are often 1 level "faster" then a generic Cleric as well). To optimize Chameleon spells, you generally want to get access to their spells as quickly as possible. So Whatever 5/Chameleon 1-10. But by entering Chameleon as quickly as possible, you've giving up the Factotum's strongest mid-level ability, Cunning Surge.

And above ECL 16, the Chameleon's spells stop scaling. So even though a Whatever/Chameleon tends to be stronger then a plain Factotum at mid levels, eventually the Factotum's spells, increased Inspiration, and other class abilities catch up and surpass the Chameleon. I think this tends to happen around ECL 16ish, though obviously it's debatable.


Anywho, if you're going level 3-20, then my suggestion is Binder 20, Human Rogue 1/Binder 19 with Able Learner, or Factotum 20.