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    Default Wouldn't a Marilith with 6 Speed Longswords be awesome!?

    That would just own! She have 6 additional attacks!

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    Default Re: Wouldn't a Marilith with 6 Speed Longswords be awesome!?

    An interesting idea, but she would be far, far above the treasure norm even for a CR17 monster. That concept should be reserved for a BBEG (although admittedly, at 17th level extra attacks won't save you from spells unless you're playing a rather non-optimized campaign).
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    Default Re: Wouldn't a Marilith with 6 Speed Longswords be awesome!?

    Well it would also make her time even more ungodly long than it already is (no pun intended). Lots of attacks can be powerful but it gets time consuming in tabletop play (though it is not bad in video games).

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    Default Re: Wouldn't a Marilith with 6 Speed Longswords be awesome!?

    Wait: the Speed weapon enhancement stacks if you have multiple wepons? I wasn't aware of that.

    EDIT: I'd personally prefer speed scimitars or great scimitars (Sandstorm Exotic weapon, basically a bastard sword, but with an 18-20 crit range.) Give the maralith the EWP and improved crit, while we're at it.
    Last edited by Chilingsworth; 2011-02-08 at 09:45 PM.
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    Default Re: Wouldn't a Marilith with 6 Speed Longswords be awesome!?

    Theoretically, yes. In practice, having the gm roll a dozen times for just one monster is actually really boring. It gets even worse when the marilith has other demons helping it, and the gm rolls even more times.
    That's why the hecatoncheir on epic level for example is an unpopular monster.

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    Default Re: Wouldn't a Marilith with 6 Speed Longswords be awesome!?

    I'm pretty sure multiples of this don't stack.


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    Default Re: Wouldn't a Marilith with 6 Speed Longswords be awesome!?

    Here's the full text on the speed enhancement.

    Quote Originally Posted by d20srd
    Speed

    When making a full attack action, the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack with it. The attack uses the wielder’s full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This benefit is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste spell.)

    Moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, haste; Price +3 bonus.

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    Default Re: Wouldn't a Marilith with 6 Speed Longswords be awesome!?

    hmm... "similar effects" I'd have thought it would be 'similiar' to itself. I suppose I could be wrong...
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    Quote Originally Posted by 'Able' Xanthis View Post
    This is what a properly motivated caster is like, people. Concussive explosions able to rip the front end of a hummer in twain and Chilling is using them to filter out those who don't make the cut. Those unworthy of his true magistic might.

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    Default Re: Wouldn't a Marilith with 6 Speed Longswords be awesome!?

    Speed

    When making a full attack action, the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack with it. The attack uses the wielder’s full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This benefit is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste spell.)

    Moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, haste; Price +3 bonus.

    The problem is it is not a stacking issue. The enchantment is affecting the weapon not you. Each enchantment on each weapon is affecting a different thing and so normal stacking principles do not really apply. Now I think it should and the entry should say that the target is affect by the extra attack portion of the haste spell so there would be no way of stacking.

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    Default Re: Wouldn't a Marilith with 6 Speed Longswords be awesome!?

    Having six speed weapons does not fall under the "similar effect" clause.

    Although actually, you could simply use haste instead of having six speed weapons, because it achieves the same effect.

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    Default Re: Wouldn't a Marilith with 6 Speed Longswords be awesome!?

    I agree with Meepo. Here it specifically says "extra attack with it". Each weapon is clearly distinct.

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    Default Re: Wouldn't a Marilith with 6 Speed Longswords be awesome!?

    Quote Originally Posted by DeltaEmil View Post
    Having six speed weapons does not fall under the "similar effect" clause.

    Although actually, you could simply use haste instead of having six speed weapons, because it achieves the same effect.
    Definately not. Haste gives only one extra attack, no matter how many weapons you have.
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    This is what a properly motivated caster is like, people. Concussive explosions able to rip the front end of a hummer in twain and Chilling is using them to filter out those who don't make the cut. Those unworthy of his true magistic might.

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    Default Re: Wouldn't a Marilith with 6 Speed Longswords be awesome!?

    For the same money (well actually 6000gp more) you can get 2 Bows of splitting and speed. Give those to an arrow demon with 16 BAB and improved rapidshot and you get to roll 24 times on a full attack action. See how long it takes to drive yourself nuts.
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    Default Re: Wouldn't a Marilith with 6 Speed Longswords be awesome!?

    Quote Originally Posted by Re'ozul View Post
    For the same money (well actually 6000gp more) you can get 2 Bows of splitting and speed. Give those to an arrow demon with 16 BAB and improved rapidshot and you get to roll 24 times on a full attack action. See how long it takes to drive yourself nuts.
    Considering normal party comp? Four to six times.

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    Default Re: Wouldn't a Marilith with 6 Speed Longswords be awesome!?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    Definately not. Haste gives only one extra attack, no matter how many weapons you have.
    Really? The SRD seems to be ambiguous:
    When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding. The attack is made using the creature’s full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This effect is not cumulative with similar effects, such as that provided by a weapon of speed, nor does it actually grant an extra action, so you can’t use it to cast a second spell or otherwise take an extra action in the round.)
    'Any' there could either mean 'each' or 'any one'. I had assumed it meant 'each'.
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    Default Re: Wouldn't a Marilith with 6 Speed Longswords be awesome!?

    And lets be honest here folks. A maralith can't fly, nor make any pounce type attacks. Giving it an even larger full attack is unlikely to save it from a level appropriate party.

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    Default Re: Wouldn't a Marilith with 6 Speed Longswords be awesome!?

    At a certain point, one should just break attacks into groups of X and make one roll for each set of attacks. It does mean crits can get magnified, but its the only rational way to run something like 100 attacks a round like the Hecatoncheire.

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    Default Re: Wouldn't a Marilith with 6 Speed Longswords be awesome!?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobold Esq View Post
    And lets be honest here folks. A maralith can't fly, nor make any pounce type attacks. Giving it an even larger full attack is unlikely to save it from a level appropriate party.
    I mentioned this in the first reply to this thread. The conversation here seems to have moved on to the mechanics of the extra attacks.

    Although this is an unusual form of optimization, that doesn't invalidate it as a topic of conversation.

    Additionally, mariliths still have greater-teleport at will, which goes a long way to making life difficult for a level appropriate party.

    Quote Originally Posted by NichG View Post
    At a certain point, one should just break attacks into groups of X and make one roll for each set of attacks. It does mean crits can get magnified, but its the only rational way to run something like 100 attacks a round like the Hecatoncheire.
    This seems like a perfectly valid method. Although I haven't had a chance to run a high enough level campaign for it to be relevant, I've done something similar to model low-level attacks. Also, at the Hecatoncheire level, aren't there rules for average damage in the epic level handbook? Couldn't that be applied to attacks?
    Last edited by Bibliomancer; 2011-02-08 at 10:06 PM.
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    Default Re: Wouldn't a Marilith with 6 Speed Longswords be awesome!?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bibliomancer View Post
    Although this is an unusual form of optimization, that doesn't invalidate it as a topic of conversation.
    It being optimized or not should not invalidate it as a topic regardless.

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    Default Re: Wouldn't a Marilith with 6 Speed Longswords be awesome!?

    Quote Originally Posted by Innis Cabal View Post
    It being optimized or not should not invalidate it as a topic regardless.
    I agree, I was simply asserting that the topic was valid (a point which the person to which I was replying seemed to be attempting to contradict). I apologize if my rebuttal was excessively specific and seemed to link optimization to the requirements for an acceptable topic (I was simply trying to provide a more meaningful response than 'actually people can talk about it anyways' since I did not wish to appear to be vigilante modding).
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    Default Re: Wouldn't a Marilith with 6 Speed Longswords be awesome!?

    It is, sadly, not awesome. It's EXTREMELY expensive to get this ability, and all it lets you do is kill stuff that you can full attack. Killing stuff you can full attack is really easy anyway, without spending all that cash.

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    Default Re: Wouldn't a Marilith with 6 Speed Longswords be awesome!?

    I could easily see a BBEG or a Dragon of a Marilith with a pair of Arrow Demons for body guards. The arrow demons have dimension door at will, so the marilith could shorten the range on its greater teleport so that they could keep up.

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    Default Re: Wouldn't a Marilith with 6 Speed Longswords be awesome!?

    Except this isn't a money thing, considering it's on a monster. So regardless of the viability in a totally optimized game, in a game where people don't sit around and crunch numbers or go off trite tier systems it makes for a potentially deadly monster.

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    Last edited by Innis Cabal; 2011-02-08 at 10:35 PM.

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    Default Re: Wouldn't a Marilith with 6 Speed Longswords be awesome!?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobold Esq View Post
    I agree with Meepo. Here it specifically says "extra attack with it". Each weapon is clearly distinct.
    "the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack..."

    If you look at it like this, the property is affecting the wielder. If its affecting the wielder, then each additional weapon of speed would also affect the wielder, and thus would not be allowed by the "similar effects" clause. The "with it(the weapon)." could be seen as a restrictive clause that says that the one extra haste attack you get HAS to be with that weapon, unlike a normal haste attack which can be made with any weapon you are wielding.

    Also, the easy way to have the Marilith make extra attacks is to change two of it's feats to Improved Multiweapon Fighting and Greater Multiweapon Fighting. Or heck, even Improved Unarmed Strike would give it 6 extra attacks per round.
    Last edited by Keld Denar; 2011-02-08 at 10:42 PM.
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    Default Re: Wouldn't a Marilith with 6 Speed Longswords be awesome!?

    The question of whether multiple Speed weapons can work simultaneously has come up many times, and always in the end comes down to "It's ambiguous; ask your DM."

    But a strong little piece of evidence in favor of Speed weapons working together is often overlooked. In a relatively modern, well-edited splatbook (Magic Item Compendium), there's an item, the Quarterstaff of Battle, which has a special ability to temporarily give both ends of it the Speed property. That would be pretty useless if you couldn't use them both, methinks.
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    Default Re: Wouldn't a Marilith with 6 Speed Longswords be awesome!?

    Quote Originally Posted by lightningcat View Post
    I could easily see a BBEG or a Dragon of a Marilith with a pair of Arrow Demons for body guards. The arrow demons have dimension door at will, so the marilith could shorten the range on its greater teleport so that they could keep up.

    I think that I might have my next campaign idea.
    That would be the worst long fight ever with each DM turn taking forever, and a day. The archers would be fairly nasty since they will get those full attacks off.

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    Default Re: Wouldn't a Marilith with 6 Speed Longswords be awesome!?

    You want additional attacks?

    Take a Level 12 Wizard, his BAB should be 6. Or better yet make it a Gish with a BAB of at least 11, so that he has 3 iteratives. Buy 12 Mouthpick weapons +1 [LoM] at the sum of 8,000+ gp each.

    Now Polymorph into a 12-headed Hydra and wield one mouthpick weapon with each head. Mouthpick weapons specifically allow iterative attacks without requiring the bite weapon to be a primary natural attack, so each head can attack 2-3 times (depending on whether you are a straight wizard or a gish) for 24-36 attacks per round (scaling to 48, if your Gish manages to gain a 4th iterative).

    If you really want to go to town, make all your weapons bludgeoning, and cast reach chained Greater Might Wallop on all of them. It should be quite easy to push their effective base damage to colossal size (since Hydras normally wield huge mouthpick weapons). So if you were using e.g. Warhammers, you could deal 6d6 base +6 Str bonus + 1 Enhancement or an average of 28 damage per hit (and gets better if you can cast reach-chain Greater Magic Weapon).
    Last edited by JeminiZero; 2011-02-09 at 04:47 AM.
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    Default Re: Wouldn't a Marilith with 6 Speed Longswords be awesome!?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobold Esq View Post
    And lets be honest here folks. A maralith can't fly, nor make any pounce type attacks. Giving it an even larger full attack is unlikely to save it from a level appropriate party.
    Marilith as written sucks. Marilith with changed feats can be quite a pain. Face a couple at some point with stuff like shape soulmeld (airstep sandals), mage slayer, pierce magical protection and the like....it hurt quite a bit.

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    Default Re: Wouldn't a Marilith with 6 Speed Longswords be awesome!?

    Quote Originally Posted by MeeposFire View Post
    That would be the worst long fight ever with each DM turn taking forever, and a day. The archers would be fairly nasty since they will get those full attacks off.
    Until a smart wizard shatters their non-magical quiver (did shock a couple of DMs with that tactic)

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    Default Re: Wouldn't a Marilith with 6 Speed Longswords be awesome!?

    Mariliths make pretty good ranged attackers themselves.

    Hide them in a permanent image of a wall (they ignore this illusion due to their true-seeing), use project image to make them appear far away while bombarding them with telekinesis and blade barriers.
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