Wouldn't a Marilith with 6 Speed Longswords be awesome!?

[Gnaeus]

Marilith as written sucks. Marilith with changed feats can be quite a pain. Face a couple at some point with stuff like shape soulmeld (airstep sandals), mage slayer, pierce magical protection and the like....it hurt quite a bit.

Indeed. Just going up the improved multiweapon fighting tree helps it a lot.

[Eldariel]

Speed is similar to speed and since it doesn't stack with Haste (which affects the wielder and grants exactly one extra attack, as per "The attack is made using the creature’s full base attack bonus..." as opposed to "The attacks are made using the creature’s full base attack bonus"), it obviously affects the wielder, not the weapon.

Multiple Speed-weapons do not grant you any extra benefits by RAW; else they would stack with Haste. Since they don't, they affect the wielder which in turn means multiple instances of Speed fall under the "similar abilities"-clause since the ability itself lists itself as similar to Haste.


And yeah, Marilith really needs quickened version of its teleport, pounce or some other way to attack with all its weapons while moving; it's extremely simple to smack it and move, cast a spell and more or whatever. It only ever gets two attacks a turn (an AoO and a standard action attack) as opposed to the 6+ attacks it gets that way.

The only exception is a literal cage where every square is in its reach and given how small Mariliths are, that's highly unlikely (not to mention, it still wouldn't stop you from just teleporting to more open space; even if it follows you, it has to give up its full attacks). Really, Marilith, Dragons and company are the perfect exemplars of how ****ty the full attack system in 3.X is; at least two-handed chargers can make that hit hurt even without pounce. And of course, Dragons can make do with magic/feats but the ability to move and attack is just so key for high level warriors to do anything and so hard to acquire in the game that it just hurts...

[LordBlades]

Really, Marilith, Dragons and company are the perfect exemplars of how ****ty the full attack system in 3.X is; at least two-handed chargers can make that hit hurt even without pounce. And of course, Dragons can make do with magic/feats but the ability to move and attack is just so key for high level warriors to do anything and so hard to acquire in the game that it just hurts...

This. Basically, vs. every monster that has more than 2 attacks, it's more advantageous to keep moving. If you do, all he can do: move next to you+make a singe attack and do an AOO when you move away. that's 2 attacks/round, as opposed to ahy full attack routine that the monster might rely on.

In order to be viable, a full attacking monster would have to either:
a)be able to close distance without having to give up full attack to do so (quickened teleport, pounce, extra actions etc.)
b)once it's next to you, have a way to keep you there (Stand Still or any similar effect, BFC effects, etc.).
c)both of the above

[Gnoman]

The Haste spell specifies "any weapon." Speed specifies the weapon with the speed enhancement. This means that you cannot use haste to get two extra attacks. Haste is not a speed effect, and because speed specifically applies to an individual weapon, and does not specifically state that no other speed weapons will work, RAW is that you can use more than one of them.

[Runestar]

Indeed. Just going up the improved multiweapon fighting tree helps it a lot.

Be warned though that iterative attacks have a lower chance of hitting, so all you may end up achieving is wasting time rolling more attacks that rarely ever hit.

I would rather just focus more on their existing attacks. PHB2 has 2-weapon rend, for instance. Improved crit can be useful.

[Starbuck_II]

Except this isn't a money thing, considering it's on a monster. So regardless of the viability in a totally optimized game, in a game where people don't sit around and crunch numbers or go off trite tier systems it makes for a potentially deadly monster.

Innis Cabal

Yeah, it is a money thing. remember PCS get that treasure when it dies.

[Keld Denar]

The Haste spell specifies "any weapon." Speed specifies the weapon with the speed enhancement. This means that you cannot use haste to get two extra attacks. Haste is not a speed effect, and because speed specifically applies to an individual weapon, and does not specifically state that no other speed weapons will work, RAW is that you can use more than one of them.

Again, depends on whether or not you put the emphasis on the beginning of the sentance (as me and Eldariel have pointed out), or on the end of the sentance (as you and MeeposFire have stated).

I could really be read either way. Your reading is not the only reading.

[Gnoman]

My point wasw that allowing them to stack isn't "not RAW" and there is a very strong argument that RAW can support either way. I was replying to a flat statement that by RAW, they do not stack. End of discussion. The wording is ambiguous as it is, and there is nothing to support either reasoning over the other. Sorry if that was not clear.

[Draz74]

and there is nothing to support either reasoning over the other.

On the contrary, I posted something "to support one reasoning over the other" earlier in the thread.

I agree with you that the primary rules source is ultimately ambiguous.

[hamishspence]

The question of whether multiple Speed weapons can work simultaneously has come up many times, and always in the end comes down to "It's ambiguous; ask your DM."

I've seen some creatures, with two Speed weapons, and their Full Attack routine having each weapon get an extra attack- Mask in Faiths and Pantheons, most notably.

So there is precedent for it stacking.

[FMArthur]

Couldn't she have a Belt of Battle or something? There has to be something more efficient than buying six 32000gp swords.

[Starbuck_II]

Couldn't she have a Belt of Battle or something? There has to be something more efficient than buying six 32000gp swords.

Belt lasts 1 rd (if using full attack action)
Speed weapons have no duration.

[Runestar]

Belt lasts 1 rd (if using full attack action)
Speed weapons have no duration.

The belt would allow for up to 3 uses/day.

How many rounds do you expect the marilith to last anyways?

Alternatively, throw in travel devotion. Move as a swift action for 1 minute.

[Cog]

The belt would allow for up to 3 uses/day.

Not if you're using it to get extra attacks. A full-round action uses up all the daily charges.

[Runestar]

Not if you're using it to get extra attacks. A full-round action uses up all the daily charges.

Then don't.

At 15000gp, I think it is quite reasonable to let the marilith move and still full-attack. Seems more efficient than blowing all the charges on 1 extra full attack.

Alternatively, if it is pounce you want, 1 lv of warblade, dervish or barb does the trick.

[Cog]

Then don't.

At 15000gp, I think it is quite reasonable to let the marilith move and still full-attack. Seems more efficient than blowing all the charges on 1 extra full attack.

Alternatively, if it is pounce you want, 1 lv of warblade, dervish or barb does the trick.

All that's true. It does nothing to replace the six weapons of speed, though.

[Starbuck_II]

Then don't.

At 15000gp, I think it is quite reasonable to let the marilith move and still full-attack. Seems more efficient than blowing all the charges on 1 extra full attack.

Alternatively, if it is pounce you want, 1 lv of warblade, dervish or barb does the trick.

I believe the only reason we mentioned speed weapon was for extra attacks, not for full attack more often... you kind of moved the goal post of discussion.

I'll admit better chance at qualifying for full attacks (extra move actions/pounce) can be more useful than double the number of attacks if within 5 feet of target (speed weapons), but not the same duscussion.

[FMArthur]

Yes, I was using it as an example of a partial solution to get to the same effect with less gold. There are lots of ways to abuse the action economy in D&D. There must surely be one that can duplicate this 192000gp investment (which is apparently already a little unsteady on the rules front) for a lesser cost. Even scrolls of Greater Celerity (it's 8th level, right?) only cost 3000gp. Daze, I forgot.