[Forgotten Realms, 3.5] What god should this paladin follow?

[Kobold Esq]

Some of you may remember my "let's start a city state!" thread. This is somewhat of a follow up to that.

A possible backup character was a charismatic warrior who would attempt a revolution in Free Unther to establish a new nation. In tinkering with the idea, I thought of a Paladin / Favored Soul (unsure on build, will worry about that later) who will go leadership and diplomacy heavy.

So the question is what god should this paladin follow, where the paladin's goal is to overthrow what is left of the existing regime and establish a new "good" regime in its place? While rebellion seems like a chaotic act, the goal is the establishment of a new order because none of the existing sides have any legitimacy. Also there is the added benefit of if you make the people happy, you can spread the influence of the Faerunian pantheon towards the east.

So what god would encourage this path? Note I did not say what clergy. I am ok with this guy possibly being a lone crusader. If however there is an appropriate clergy, that'd be good too.

[Kobold Esq]

Oh and I suppose I should ask for build thoughts too, or a link to anywhere that people have discussed them before.

[arguskos]

You'd go with the Triad probably, Helm, Tyr, and Ilmater. The exact one, I dunno. I could see arguments for any of the three, and for their subordinate, Torm.

Helm: You're taking this particularly militant stance so you can protect and shelter others. Ok, Helm's down with that.
Tyr: You are bringing justice. Ok, Tyr's cool with that.
Ilmater: This is the only shaky one, but I can still see it. Ilmater is all about healing and bringing succor to those in need, and where else needs it more, right?
Torm: God of paladins, though his dogma says nothing about actually doing stuff really. He's more of a vassal god to the Triad, so yeah.

Personally, I'd roll with Helm or Ilmater.

[Kobold Esq]

Hi again arguskos! (note: no capitalization this time!)

I was also just scanning Lathander in the FRCS. At first I thought it wouldn't make sense, because Lathander was just a generic "sun, birth, etc" type god, but a few lines stood out to me:

"The church encourages its faithful to build new things, restore barren areas, foster growth in cultivated lands, drive out evil, and word to restore or lead civilizations to new heights of harmony art and progress." Also: "It is a sacred duty to forster new growth, nurture growing things, and work for rebirth and renewal."

I think one could strongly argue this fits. Helm didn't quite feel right, but Ter was another I had considered, but I couldn't quite fit my plans into the dogma. It seems far more "law" heavy.

[Talya]

Following the "Red Knight" also fits with the tactical and strategic prowess he'd need to build a nation through revolution.

There's even substitution levels for Paladins of the Red Knight in Champions of Valor.

[arguskos]

Hi again arguskos! (note: no capitalization this time!)

You make the best threads.

I was also just scanning Lathander in the FRCS. At first I thought it wouldn't make sense, because Lathander was just a generic "sun, birth, etc" type god, but a few lines stood out to me:

"The church encourages its faithful to build new things, restore barren areas, foster growth in cultivated lands, drive out evil, and word to restore or lead civilizations to new heights of harmony art and progress." Also: "It is a sacred duty to forster new growth, nurture growing things, and work for rebirth and renewal."

Lathander would work as well, but he's not quite militant enough for the task at hand, IMO.

I think one could strongly argue this fits. Helm didn't quite feel right, but Ter was another I had considered, but I couldn't quite fit my plans into the dogma. It seems far more "law" heavy.

Helm I think works well, you know, guardian and all. Tyr *is* very law focused, which is why I suggested Helm, since Helm is (in this respect), a more neutral version of Tyr.

I personally would still roll with Ilmater, cause I like him. He's better for a priest-type though, instead of a paladin I think. Depends on which build you roll with.

EDIT: Talya makes a good point. The Red Knight is a good choice as well, and the close association with Tempus would work well. I should have thought of Her Serenity first, seeing as how I'm playing a priest of the Red Knight right now.

[Kobold Esq]

I guess it is a means versus ends question. Lathander (and I supposed Helm) is focused on the end. Rebirth and renewal of the nation, spreading of the worship of the pantheon (in Helm's case, the goal is to protect the people of Unther from the negative influence of both their current leadership and the invading Mulhorandi I supposed).

The Red Knight seems to focus more on the means, strategy and tactics.

I'm not sure if one is inherently better than the other, but I'm inclined towards a god that favors the ends, rather than providing means.

[Saintheart]

It's a bit off the standard track, but how about Chauntea? Goddess of agriculture; she's all about cycles and rebirth. Neutral Good; she could be interested in simply renewing Teh Land after years of war. Agriculture is the foundation of nations. Her domains even include Renewal.

[Kobold Esq]

Another thought which I am shocked I didn't come up with earlier: Hoar?

Ex-Untherite god, joined the Faerunian pantheon. Of course he would favor someone who seeks to reinvigorate Unther, right? (and hopefully eventually get the country back in a position to stomp Mulhorand, but that is a looooong term goal)

The downside is there is no real organized clergy to speak of to fall back on for support.

[arguskos]

Another thought which I am shocked I didn't come up with earlier: Hoar?

Ex-Untherite god, joined the Faerunian pantheon. Of course he would favor someone who seeks to reinvigorate Unther, right? (and hopefully eventually get the country back in a position to stomp Mulhorand, but that is a looooong term goal)

The downside is there is no real organized clergy to speak of to fall back on for support.

Hoar is far more interested in vengeance than anything else, hardly a fitting paladin god. I overlooked him precisely because of that. Hoar is all about revenge and getting people back for slights and whatnot. Paladins are all about doing good works and whatnot. There's a vital disconnect here.

[Kobold Esq]

Isn't in some basic way destroying evil a form of vengeance? Does evil not deserve its come-uppence?

I dunno, just spit balling ideas.


I'm thinking the character is an aasimar born to an Untherite family, but raised overseas (which explains perhaps how he adopted a "foreign" god), and is now returning to restore the glory of his homeland, if somewhat in the image of the lands he was raised (no slavery, Faerunian pantheon worship, etc).

Part of this is for mechanical reasons (to get a region that will give some not-terrible regional feats, since the DM gives one free regional feat to every character), and partly for RP reasons (to explain why the character is just dropping back into the country, and and is just starting his campaign).

[hamishspence]

Hoar is LN though (so he falls within the one-step rule- allowing him to have paladins). And deities like Tyr do try to steer him away from the more evil types of vengeance and towards "poetic justice"-

a LG paladin of vengeance, who takes a measured and nuanced approach, and avoids succumbing to brutality in it, is quite feasible.

Similarly, Lathlander does have paladin orders- even if he himself is not all that militant. I liked the paladin of Lathlander in Finder's Bane and Tymora's Luck- both by Jeff Grubb & Kate Novak.

[AslanCross]

Well, all of the Untheric deities are dead, so I'd use any regular Paladin deity. I'm partial to Torm, simply because his giant-lion-headed avatar fragging Bane's deity using the sacrificed souls of his willing followers was awesome.

[dsmiles]

Hoar is LN though (so he falls within the one-step rule- allowing him to have paladins). And deities like Tyr do try to steer him away from the more evil types of vengeance and towards "poetic justice"-

a LG paladin of vengeance, who takes a measured and nuanced approach, and avoids succumbing to brutality in it, is quite feasible.

I'm quite fond of Hoar, myself. Though in this particular case, it'd be a toss-up between Hoar and Torm (or maybe even Siamorphe) for me.

[hamishspence]

Free Unther is pretty small- ruled over by the Northern Wizards.

Would the paladin just seek to overthrow them- or would they seek to overthrow the Mulhorandi invasion as well?

If they want to do that- there's plenty of potential allies. Some are evil- but depending on the DM, the paladin might not Fall for trying to get their aid.

The Church of Tiamat was a major enemy of Gilgeam before he died and the Mulhorandi invaded- and is seen by a large portion of the Untherite population as a friend to the oppressed.
It still works to overthrow the Mulhorandi occupation, and its high priest in Unther is LN-aligned.

[Talya]

EDIT: Talya makes a good point. The Red Knight is a good choice as well, and the close association with Tempus would work well. I should have thought of Her Serenity first, seeing as how I'm playing a priest of the Red Knight right now.

:)

I really like any chance to use the substitution levels in Champions of Valor. They're not all great, but they tend to add a wonderful bit of customization and flavor to people of the same character class who follow different gods. Nobody would mistake a Ruby Rose Knight (Sune, Yumm!) for a Berronar Valkyrie (female dwarf), or a Mystic Fire Knight (Mystra), or a Red Falcon Paladin (Red Knight)...but they're all just paladins.

[Kobold Esq]

Free Unther is pretty small- ruled over by the Northern Wizards.

Would the paladin just seek to overthrow them- or would they seek to overthrow the Mulhorandi invasion as well?

If they want to do that- there's plenty of potential allies. Some are evil- but depending on the DM, the paladin might not Fall for trying to get their aid.

The Church of Tiamat was a major enemy of Gilgeam before he died and the Mulhorandi invaded- and is seen by a large portion of the Untherite population as a friend to the oppressed.
It still works to overthrow the Mulhorandi occupation, and its high priest in Unther is LN-aligned.

One step at a time! First Free Unther. Institute a new government. THEN I can worry about building up forces to fight against Mulhorand. The Untherite people will be more willing to fight and defend their lands if they aren't going to be slaves. Also, slaves on the Mulhorandi side may be willing to defect (as opposed to the current set up, where captured slaves are often happy to serve Mulhorand to get revenge on their previous overlords).


hamishspence sort of sees where I was going with Lathander and Hoar. I actually kind of like having a paladin of a non-standard god (at least not standard for paladins). Seems like 90% of paladins are Helm/Tyr/Torm. I'd be ok with Red Knight, but I feel like Lathander and Hoar bring more positive messages to the people.

Lathander: Help build some new and awesome! You've got a god on your side! Yay for everyone!

Hoar: Kick those old school nobles in their noble butt! Strike back at your previous oppressors and take back the land that belongs to you! (And maybe take back the rest of occupied Unther next, once we get around to it... and you know what, let's destroy Anhur too, because he deserves it....)

[Kobold Esq]

Bump for new question:


Build advice? I've switched to a Lesser Aasimar (as in PGtF) and I'm aiming for a Paladin 2 / Favored Soul 18 (starting right at level 2).

Rules-
32 point buy
I get 1 regional feat for free
Flaws and traits in play, DM encourages one of each
Core + Completes + Forgotten Realms


I'm currently thinking s16, d14, c14, i12, w10, c16 after stat adjustments. Flaw of Shaky (but reflavored to be somelike like... One Eye. Same effect, different justification).

So I get three feats (free regional fear, normal, flaw)
1) Luck of Heroes (raised in Algarond)
2) Power Attack
3) ___________?

[CapnVan]

You'd go with the Triad probably, Helm, Tyr, and Ilmater.

Just a quick correction: Helm isn't a member of the Triad. Replace him with Torm and you've got it right.

And a Realms paladin can choose to take the Triad in general as his patron. Might work well.

[Hazzardevil]

Hoar is LN though (so he falls within the one-step rule- allowing him to have paladins). And deities like Tyr do try to steer him away from the more evil types of vengeance and towards "poetic justice"-

a LG paladin of vengeance, who takes a measured and nuanced approach, and avoids succumbing to brutality in it, is quite feasible.

Similarly, Lathlander does have paladin orders- even if he himself is not all that militant. I liked the paladin of Lathlander in Finder's Bane and Tymora's Luck- both by Jeff Grubb & Kate Novak.

Tyr? Isn't that a good alligned god in teh deeds of paksenarrion?

Back on subject.

Bump for new question:


Build advice? I've switched to a Lesser Aasimar (as in PGtF) and I'm aiming for a Paladin 2 / Favored Soul 18 (starting right at level 2).

Rules-
32 point buy
I get 1 regional feat for free
Flaws and traits in play, DM encourages one of each
Core + Completes + Forgotten Realms


I'm currently thinking s16, d14, c14, i12, w10, c16 after stat adjustments. Flaw of Shaky (but reflavored to be somelike like... One Eye. Same effect, different justification).

So I get three feats (free regional fear, normal, flaw)
1) Luck of Heroes (raised in Algarond)
2) Power Attack
3) ___________?

I think if your allowed that 6th level feat should be mounted combat, then aquire turn undead somehow, (I reccomend a level up cleric so you can access 2 domains or 1 and divine magician,) so you can go ibnto prestige paladin, get a special mount, have full bab and a few other paladin goodies, and I reccomend taking 2 levels in teh class and then holy mount so you have something like this.

1)Luck of heroes
Flaw)power attack
Flaw)Mounted combat

take 8 favoured soul levels, then aquire turn undead somehow, take 2 prestige paladin levels and then take holy mount so your favoured soul caster levels stack with your paladin levels for your mount.

I don't know much about dieties though.

[hamishspence]

Tyr? Isn't that a good alligned god in teh deeds of paksenarrion?

In Forgotten Realms, Tyr is a LG deity of justice.

The base concept is, I think, the Norse deity Tyr- they even lift the legend of how Tyr lost his hand to the wolf Fenrir, only in this case, it's the Chaos Hound that was chained up and bit off Tyr's hand.

One step at a time! First Free Unther. Institute a new government. THEN I can worry about building up forces to fight against Mulhorand. The Untherite people will be more willing to fight and defend their lands if they aren't going to be slaves.

The Northern Wizards are already revolutionaries- but they didn't go so far as to overthrow the Untherite aristocracy. They were "secret worshippers of Mystra and Ishtar" and their leader (in the FRCS book) is neutral good.

That said, they're not really in a good position- what with all the other powerful factions.

Ningal, in the FRCS book, is already running a rebellion against the Mulhorandi in occupied Unther- and is being sought as an ally by the Northern Wizards. So, in effect, there's already a rebellion against Mulhorand in progress.

The Northern Wizards might not be keen on ending slavery, but if allied with rather than overthrown, they might make a big difference. Since most of the other power centers in the region are much nastier than them.

[Kobold Esq]

The problem is the group already has two characters who are vehemently anti-slavery from outside the region, as well as an Untherite ex-slave. Any eventual rebellion will pretty much guarantee freeing of slaves.

My original plan was just to set up a small city state somewhere, a haven for freed slaves and war refugees, but many other people argued that it was doomed to failure and my better option would be taking over Unther (as prodigious a task as that is). You're welcome to weigh in on that original conclusion.

[hamishspence]

Turning Free Unther into a slavery-free state might be a little difficult- but if you can get enough factions on-side, it could work.

There's a lot of extremely dangerous neighbours though- not just the Mulhorandi occupation. In Dragons of Faerun Tchazzar The Conqueror (fiendish great red wyrm dragon ascendant) has returned to rule Chessenta, and in Threskel, a blue dragon great wyrm dracolich rules, with lots of dragon subordinates (including one vampire dragon).

That said, some dangerous neighbours that are more distant (the Red Wizards of Thay) are known to support revolutionaries in Unther (primarily out of a dislike of the Mulhorandi though).