Support the GITP forums on Patreon
Help support GITP's forums (and ongoing server maintenance) via Patreon
Results 1 to 21 of 21
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Banned
     
    faceroll's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2010

    Default Optimization challenge [3.5]

    I'm going to be a DM, and I want to school the players in just how nasty magic can be.

    Here's the plan: 1 6th level wizard using only the DMG & PHB1 to defeat the following (with access to virtually an book)
    human fighter10
    elf fighter10//monk10
    human fighter6/barb1/hellreaver2
    pixie warlock 8//rogue4
    cleric 7/fighter1

    Given the constraints above (no candle of invocation abuse), how would you do it? Web + flying and a wand of damage could cause them a very serious headache. The pixie is likely the biggest threat, but in a web, it will never escape. The cleric is 2nd biggest threat, but in a web, it's dead. The monk has insane high AC, but can't do anything vs. flying. Other than a very annoying encounter, I want the characters to face a risk of dying. I know their builds pretty well, so if you suggest a plan, just ask if they have any specific counters to your idea.

    Ideas?

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2004

    Default Re: Optimization challenge [3.5]

    Lots and lots of Shrink Item and Explosive Runes cheese.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Firbolg in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Optimization challenge [3.5]

    All at once, huh? No going 7th level for 4th level spells from your class itself? I guess you could still use a wand/scroll of Solid Fog to shut down the melee types (a raven familiar with some wands will be great if you can find a way to get good UMD, just for action economy). I agree that Web + Fly (possibly + Wind Wall) = much frustration for the PCs (just watch out that the cleric doesn't dispel you). With just level 6 and no Focused Specialist or reserve feats, you'll have a hard time actually finishing off all of them before you start needing to get creative with your spell slots. Pity that you don't have Cloudkill, but again, a scroll or two can do wonders.
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    Come join the Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground E6 Appetizer Edition! We're currently judging for round 23. Everyone is welcome! Wanna be an instant authority? Just come judge, even if it's your first time!

    My compiled Iron Chef stuff!

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Chicago Il
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Optimization challenge [3.5]

    First off you need to have see invisible or something of its ilk ready for that pixies invisibility. At lv 16 fly should also be up to stay out of reach of the melee characters or the wizard won't last more than a round. If you just want to scare the PCs throw down a cloudkill, constant constitution loss is enough to send most parties running. Further enervate is good for similar reasons. IMO I would lead with black tentacles into cloudkill, while flying above them throwing up a few walls of force to trap them until the constitution damage wipes them out.

    The only true flaw in this plan is if the ranged characters can get free of the tentacles before sealed in which case windwall is recommended to knock out any projectiles and to keep the pixie from getting anywhere close. Solid fog is also a good spell to throw up after cloudkill because it will limit their movements if they break free of the tentacles.

    I hope you don't plan on them winning this encounter

    Edit: ach missread 1 6th as 16th
    Last edited by Enterti; 2011-02-10 at 01:37 AM.
    Originally posted by DuncanIdaho488 "Tomb of Horrors drinking game? BRILLIANT!"

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Draz74's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Utah
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Optimization challenge [3.5]

    Fell Drain Power Word: Pain.
    You can call me Draz.
    Trophies:
    Spoiler
    Show

    Also of note:

    I'm back to working on converting Red Hand of Doom to 5e.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Godskook's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2008

    Default Re: Optimization challenge [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
    Fell Drain Power Word: Pain.
    Neither is an allowed option for the wizard of topic.

    @OP, can the wizard draw non-core books for things like Alter Self?
    Avatar by Assassin89
    I started my first campaign around a campfire, having pancakes. They were blueberry.
    My homebrew(updated 6/17):

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Jorgenfist
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Optimization challenge [3.5]

    Why are some of those character gestalted and others not?

    Windwall + fly takes out everyone but the pixie and the cleric, of course....
    Last edited by Coidzor; 2011-02-10 at 01:48 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
    +3 Girlfriend is totally unoptimized. You are better off with a +1 Keen Witty girlfriend and then appling Greater Magic Make-up to increase her enhancement bonus.
    Homebrew
    To Do: Reboot and finish Riptide

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Draz74's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Utah
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Optimization challenge [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Godskook View Post
    Neither is an allowed option for the wizard of topic.
    Whoops, I just read "with access to virtually any book" and didn't realize that was talking about the opposition.

    Ignore me ...
    You can call me Draz.
    Trophies:
    Spoiler
    Show

    Also of note:

    I'm back to working on converting Red Hand of Doom to 5e.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Banned
     
    faceroll's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2010

    Default Re: Optimization challenge [3.5]

    @all
    Thanks for your suggestions you guys, so far. Wand of web + wand of scorching ray is current plan. Craft Wand lets me get both for 750 gp I think, which is within NPC gp. Just need to make sure terrain is tough enough for 'em.

    Quote Originally Posted by Godskook View Post
    @OP, can the wizard draw non-core books for things like Alter Self?
    If it's not in PHB1 or DMG1, I really don't want to use it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    Why are some of those character gestalted and others not?
    previous DM don't know what's up.

    Windwall + fly takes out everyone but the pixie and the cleric, of course....
    Web should end them.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2004

    Default Re: Optimization challenge [3.5]

    He can have wands at fewer than the maximum number of charges for a proportionately lower price.

    Use Shrink Item on a pool of lava to turn it into a small cloth patch. Make about three such patches, all with the same command word. Get a large metal dome made, cast Shrink Item on that as well, different command word from the lava patches. Glue the lava patches in the underside of the shrunken dome, and have a flying familiar capable of carrying it. Hit them with Web, then as the familiar is flying over them with the dome speak the command word to expand it. The dome will drop over them and the web effect, trapping everyone inside. Speak the command word for the lava patches, they are now trapped inside a dome filled with lava, taking 20d6 damage per round for total immersion. Unless they can destroy the nonmagical metal dome, or neutralize the nonmagical lava, or teleport out, they're doomed.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Jorgenfist
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Optimization challenge [3.5]

    Don't forget to consider the possibility of a partially charged wand of web. that'll probably be cheaper than even making it one's self.
    Quote Originally Posted by faceroll View Post
    previous DM don't know what's up.
    Still... You might want to rectify this situation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
    +3 Girlfriend is totally unoptimized. You are better off with a +1 Keen Witty girlfriend and then appling Greater Magic Make-up to increase her enhancement bonus.
    Homebrew
    To Do: Reboot and finish Riptide

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Chimera

    Join Date
    Jan 2010

    Default Re: Optimization challenge [3.5]

    Here's the plan: 1 6th level wizard using only the DMG & PHB1 to defeat the following (with access to virtually an book)
    So are you looking for a sixteenth level wizard, or one lv6 wizard? There's a great difference.

    If the former, forget about building from scratch. For starters, use the black ethergaunt (cr16) from fiend folio. Since it casts as a lv17 wizard, this gives you 9th lv spells.

    If the latter, how is a cr6 npc supposed to take on multiple lv10 PCs?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    I can never understand WOTC's reasoning; taking RAW as a whole is like grabbing a book filled with fortune cookie sayings and basing your life off of them.
    My humble efforts at re-cr'ing MM2
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215727

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Jorgenfist
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Optimization challenge [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Runestar View Post
    If the latter, how is a cr6 npc supposed to take on multiple lv10 PCs?
    It is the latter. And it's with the power of core spells and magic items.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
    +3 Girlfriend is totally unoptimized. You are better off with a +1 Keen Witty girlfriend and then appling Greater Magic Make-up to increase her enhancement bonus.
    Homebrew
    To Do: Reboot and finish Riptide

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Killer Angel's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Lustria
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Optimization challenge [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Runestar View Post
    If the latter, how is a cr6 npc supposed to take on multiple lv10 PCs?
    Apparently, with an heavy use of metaknowledge...
    Do I contradict myself?
    Very well then I contradict myself. I am large, I contain multitudes. (W.Whitman)


    Things that increase my self esteem:
    Spoiler
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiyanwang View Post
    Great analysis KA. I second all things you said
    Quote Originally Posted by JoeYounger View Post
    Great analysis KA, I second everything you said here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu_Bonkosi View Post
    If I have a player using Paladin in the future I will direct them to this. Good job.
    Quote Originally Posted by grimbold View Post
    THIS is proof that KA is amazing
    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'Dice Lost View Post
    Killer Angel, you have an excellent taste in books
    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Historical zombies is a fantastic idea.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Planetar

    Join Date
    Feb 2009

    Default Re: Optimization challenge [3.5]

    What point buy for the wizard?
    How much wealth?
    Custom items in?
    Use of consumables allowed/desired?

    Likely won't be possible without cheese. The party would have to be atrociously bad to loose otherwise.
    And instead us asking for counters, you might as well post their builds so we aren't working blindly.

    Does it have to be a wizard? At level 6, a sorcerer might be better => more spell slots. You won't need much of the utility a wizard offers if it's just for one encounter.

    Edit:
    My take on it would be the following:
    Wizard 5/Red Wizard 1
    Use Restoration+Inspire Greatness Cheese to make yourself a Red Wizard 6.
    Optimize Charisma so you have a Leadership score of at least 10.
    Take Leadership as your 6th level feat.
    You get one 4th level cohort and 5 1st level followers. Make them all wizards that take Tattoo focus. Use their spell slots to give yourself CL 20 and selectively use metamagic on some of your damaging spells.
    Last edited by Aharon; 2011-02-10 at 07:10 AM.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    HalflingPirate

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    In an Octopus's Garden

    Default Re: Optimization challenge [3.5]

    I would stack Slow with the Web. Slow will make them unable to use the full round action necessary to move through the Web.
    Dex

    Spoiler
    Show
    Regarding my Necrotic Apprentice trick:
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    This is brilliant.
    Regarding my Non-Epic Hidecarved Dragon:
    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    Nicely done. Probably too cheesy for many tables, but I'd be inclined to allow it at mine, just for chutzpah.

    Have a cookie.
    Spoiler
    Show
    Check out the Versatile Domain Generalist.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Banned
     
    faceroll's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2010

    Default Re: Optimization challenge [3.5]

    I want wizard instead of sorc because the wiz can be a dwarf. Also, wiz gives me a larger repertoire of spells to work with in putting in wands, scrolls, etc, as well as a bonus feat. Having a bunch of int also lets me put cross-class ranks in cross-class stuff like tumble or listen.

    More build details:
    Cleric a cleric 7/fighter1. His feats are: my feats are useless. He has like 12 con and 18 cha. LG follower of the Burning Hate. His spells are typically either wasted on in-combat heals or used to blast. Sometimes he tries to debuff, but he tends to target the wrong saves. Likes to spend most of his spells on buffs, but once combat starts, he realizes that he didn't bother casting any buffs, and then instead of putting buffs up, spends times casting cure serious wounds.

    FighterOne is Fighter8 or 10 or something. It doesn't really matter, because his feats are weapon specialization glaive and great cleave.

    FighterTwo is Fighter6/barb1/Hellreaver2. He doesn't know how to play the game very well, he also has difficulty doing relatively simple addition. Despite playing once a week for months, he still hasn't grasped how ability scores relate to say, your attack bonus. I built him as a trip-monkey, and he has a custom feat that lets him have powerful build. His weapon has reach, does 2d8 damage, and crits on a 19-20. He'd be pretty good if he could remember how to attack, etc.

    Monk10//Fighter10
    Has fists that do like 2d8 damage and the cleric puts buffs on her. Dex & Wis around 20, luminous armor gets her AC upwards of 40. Touch AC is also very high. Very good at jumping. Decent stunning fist.

    Pixie's build is like warlock8//pixie4/rogue4. I don't know what exactly her powers are, other than getting pre-errata monster manual 1 pixie SLAs 3/day (which includes stuff like polymorph on self only, entangle, and maybe faerie fire). The player is new to D&D, but she's smart, resourceful, and probably the best player at the table.

    Their equipment is all crap. Some of them have weapons that do lots of damage (omgx +2 acidic battle axe), and they all have pretty good magic items that boost defense. We recently found a +5 cloak of resistance, and the pixie carries a staff of wall of ice.

    They all have very high stats. 18 in a primary stat with multiple 16s. I would doubt anyone having below 10 in something, except maybe the pixie's strength.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aharon View Post
    Edit:
    My take on it would be the following:
    Wizard 5/Red Wizard 1
    Use Restoration+Inspire Greatness Cheese to make yourself a Red Wizard 6.
    Optimize Charisma so you have a Leadership score of at least 10.
    Take Leadership as your 6th level feat.
    You get one 4th level cohort and 5 1st level followers. Make them all wizards that take Tattoo focus. Use their spell slots to give yourself CL 20 and selectively use metamagic on some of your damaging spells.
    I find your op-fu delightful, but for the purposes of this encounter, I want to use only one NPC.

    Quote Originally Posted by dextercorvia View Post
    I would stack Slow with the Web. Slow will make them unable to use the full round action necessary to move through the Web.
    Oooh, very nice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou View Post
    He can have wands at fewer than the maximum number of charges for a proportionately lower price.

    Use Shrink Item on a pool of lava to turn it into a small cloth patch. Make about three such patches, all with the same command word. Get a large metal dome made, cast Shrink Item on that as well, different command word from the lava patches. Glue the lava patches in the underside of the shrunken dome, and have a flying familiar capable of carrying it. Hit them with Web, then as the familiar is flying over them with the dome speak the command word to expand it. The dome will drop over them and the web effect, trapping everyone inside. Speak the command word for the lava patches, they are now trapped inside a dome filled with lava, taking 20d6 damage per round for total immersion. Unless they can destroy the nonmagical metal dome, or neutralize the nonmagical lava, or teleport out, they're doomed.
    That is beyond fiendish. That is Gygaxian. I don't want to wipe them that mercilessly.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    HalflingPirate

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    In an Octopus's Garden

    Default Re: Optimization challenge [3.5]

    That was a long post, and I may be able to help more later, but the DMG has Gold Dwarf which doesn't take a hit to Cha, if you decide later that Sorcerer is better for staying power in this. I don't remember off the top of my head, but I think it is +2 Con, -2 Wis.

    I'm with you on Wizard generally, but if you narrow your attack routine down to 2-3 spells that you want to spam from your list and scrolls/wands for the rest, you might change your mind.

    Definitely consider partially charged wands. You don't want 45 charge wands of all that goodness falling into party hands if things go south.
    Dex

    Spoiler
    Show
    Regarding my Necrotic Apprentice trick:
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    This is brilliant.
    Regarding my Non-Epic Hidecarved Dragon:
    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    Nicely done. Probably too cheesy for many tables, but I'd be inclined to allow it at mine, just for chutzpah.

    Have a cookie.
    Spoiler
    Show
    Check out the Versatile Domain Generalist.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Optimization challenge [3.5]

    Too bad you aren't allowed other books. My personal favorite is Fell Draining Enlarged Kelgore's Grave Mist. Automatically take 1 negative level and if you don't make the save versus fatigue then there is no way of getting out for like 2 rounds.

    Yes, Wands of Web (5 charges) and Fly. You will need wind wall around the pixie otherwise he is going to blast you until you die since at level 6 your touch is going to suck.

    Problem is you need a way to -kill- these guys. I few ideas I have.

    Scrolls of high level spells to summon in high CR monsters. I'd say Gate but that is too cheesy. An Elder Air Elemental is supremely good at Hit-and-run tactics with a crazy +hit and can slip through web with no problem....it's made of Air!

    Hire a few NPC's to chisel square blocks of rock for you, weighing several tons to the maximum of your caster level. Cast shrink Item (extended just to make sure) and put them in your pocket. When your players are all webbed, fly above them and drop the shrunk rocks and dismiss the spell. Instant death.

    Oh, that reminds me. Don't forget a few potions/wands of Invisibility. Buffing up is a must.
    Quote Originally Posted by shadow_archmagi View Post

    DM says: WHY!? WHY!? WHY?!
    DM means: NO! NO! NO!!!
    Player hears: GOOD JOB PLAYER! DO IT AGAIN AND AGAIN!

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Kitchener/Waterloo
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Optimization challenge [3.5]

    Can you put a Web on top of people like you seem to be suggesting? I was under the impression that there was a blanket rule against putting the products of conjurations in the same space as creatures, to stop things like summoning a monster inside another monster to make it explode. Not being able to do this with Web was one of the reasons the battlefield control wizard I ran against my party finally got defeated.
    Lord Raziere herd I like Blasphemy, so Urpriest Exalted as a Malefactor

    Meet My Monstrous Guide to Monsters. Everything you absolutely need to know about Monsters and never thought you needed to ask.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mithril Leaf View Post
    One of the unwritten rules of Giantitp is that Urpriest is always right.
    Trophy!
    Spoiler
    Show


    original Urpriest (by Andraste)

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Telonius's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Wandering in Harrekh
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Optimization challenge [3.5]

    The most horrible way to beat the party would be to figure out the alignment of the most powerful members, then buy a scroll of Blasphemy/Dictum/whatever made by a 15th-level Cleric. Bump up your UMD, and enjoy the results. It looks like the highest level of the party is 10, so they'd be paralyzed, no save. Move in and slit their throats at your leisure.

    Alternately, several doses of Dust of Sneezing and Choking.

    Note: both of these methods would be considered extremely dishonorable, not just as a character, but as a player.

    EDIT: Just to see how high you could get that UMD check at 6th...

    9 ranks
    5 ranks in spellcraft = +2 synergy
    5 ranks in decipher script = +2 synergy
    Magical Aptitude feat = +2
    Skill Focus feat = +3
    Potion of Eagle's Splendor = +2
    Circlet of Persuasion = +3
    Let's say, 12 Cha = +1
    Total: +24

    As long as you have a 17 Wisdom or higher, it's an automatic success on casting from the scroll. If you don't have a 17 or higher, you'll need to roll a 8 on your UMD check to emulate an ability score (32-15=17), so 65% chance of success.
    Last edited by Telonius; 2011-02-12 at 12:28 AM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •