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    GnomePirate

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    Default 4e ways to increase attack rolls as wizard

    I'm new to 4e, and feel like I'm not hitting all that often.
    I'm playing a lvl 1 Eladrin wizard (shortly to reach lvl 2). I have 18 int (16 + 2 from racial bonus).
    My powers are: thunderwave, phantasmal assault, orbmaster's incendiary detonation, sleep, and the sustainable fire orb from PHB 1. In our last encounter, I ended up hitting less than a third of the time (thunderwaves that targets multiple minions).
    How can I increase my chance to hit things (short of magic items)?

    As far as I know, the only things that affect my attack rolls are my intelligence and any enhancement bonus from magical implements. And maybe some feats somewhere, but I feel that I might be missing something important (similar to martial classes' proficiency bonus with weapons).

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    Default Re: 4e ways to increase attack rolls as wizard

    Your best bet is to take Enlarge Spell and simply make more attack rolls. If you make four attacks per turn, and half of them hit, you're still being highly effective.
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    Default Re: 4e ways to increase attack rolls as wizard

    You could look up the Implement Expertise feat from the PHB2 which gives +1 to all attack rolls made with your implement of choice.

    edit: Also, save up your cash for a +1 version of your implement, 360gp. Your DM might include this in his treasure but you never know.

    Also try swapping up what defense you attack. Having trouble hitting their FORT defense? Swap to REF.

    In addition, pick up powers which attack WILL, nearly everything has lower WILL.

    You can, by raw, make knowledge checks on enemies to find out their defenses too if the DM is okay with this, the DC is relatively high though.
    Last edited by Sipex; 2011-02-10 at 01:09 PM.

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    GnomePirate

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    Default Re: 4e ways to increase attack rolls as wizard

    @Kurad Galain: That was the plan originally, but it was more along the lines of I'm making 6 attack rolls (in this case, an area burst 3 orbmaster's detonation), and only hitting twice (one imp and dretch each [imp was a minion, dretch was weaker]). My enlarged thunderwaves only ever hit one guy at a time (which put me in a precarious position, because our party of 4 + 2 NPCs and a horse was outnumbered).

    Btw, that horse was badass. It got more kills than our ranger (granted, the horse's kills were minions, and the ranger's kill was the mini-boss, but still).

    I probably need to work out plans with my meat shields to blast with thunderwave more often.

    @Sipex: That sounds useful. I'd probably seen it at one point, but then forgotten. I'll look it over before leveling.
    @Sipex edit: If the DM tells me that my attack that targets will missed because the monster (a minion imp, in this case) had really beady eyes and didn't really notice the phantasmal assault, that means I shouldn't try that attack anymore, right?
    I should have enough money now to buy a better orb (unless the meatshield makes me buy him a magical javelin... I accidentally set one on fire. With an encounter power. And was forced to promise to buy a new one.)

    Thanks for your help guys (both the strategy and equip/feat choice).
    Last edited by malachi; 2011-02-10 at 01:24 PM.

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    Default Re: 4e ways to increase attack rolls as wizard

    The best idea is what has already been stated.
    Increase your bonuses, increase how many attacks, and hit a variety of defenses rather then 1.
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    Default Re: 4e ways to increase attack rolls as wizard

    Quote Originally Posted by malachi View Post
    I probably need to work out plans with my meat shields to blast with thunderwave more often.

    @Sipex: That sounds useful. I'd probably seen it at one point, but then forgotten. I'll look it over before leveling.
    @Sipex edit: If the DM tells me that my attack that targets will missed because the monster (a minion imp, in this case) had really beady eyes and didn't really notice the phantasmal assault, that means I shouldn't try that attack anymore, right?
    I should have enough money now to buy a better orb (unless the meatshield makes me buy him a magical javelin... I accidentally set one on fire. With an encounter power. And was forced to promise to buy a new one.)

    Thanks for your help guys (both the strategy and equip/feat choice).
    For your burst/blast, you just need to talk to your party about tactics. Also, see if you're allowed to metagame at all and state "I'm going to place a burst here on my turn, could you guys try to stay out of there if possible?"

    On your question about the attack missing. It depends, did you get a really good roll on that attack? If so then yeah, it might be time to swap defenses. If you didn't then keep trying it. It could simply be that the DM was adding flavour to your miss beyond saying "Oh, you missed."
    Last edited by Sipex; 2011-02-10 at 01:35 PM.

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    Default Re: 4e ways to increase attack rolls as wizard

    Superior implement training and an accurate implement (PHB3) is an extra +1 to your attack rolls.

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    Default Re: 4e ways to increase attack rolls as wizard

    If you're allowed to use Essentials feats, there are expertise feats that do more than just give a bonus to hit. Staff Expertise, for example, gives a +1 feat bonus to hit, lets you make ranged attacks without provoking OAs, and gives your melee attacks extra reach.

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    Default Re: 4e ways to increase attack rolls as wizard

    Ah essentials how I love thee and your amazing feat selection.
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    GnomePirate

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    Default Re: 4e ways to increase attack rolls as wizard

    @Sipex
    I kind of suck at tactics.
    Also (from your earlier post), it hadn't occurred to me to do monster checks. That would help a lot.

    @Fallbot
    (I believe the answer is probably yes, but) Can you have a magical superior implement? And would the cost just be the cost of the magical implement (say, +1 orb) + the cost of the superior implement (for 360 + 30 for an orb)?

    @Jaidu
    What book are those feats from?

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    Default Re: 4e ways to increase attack rolls as wizard

    Quote Originally Posted by malachi View Post
    @Jaidu
    What book are those feats from?
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    Default Re: 4e ways to increase attack rolls as wizard

    Yup, you can enchant them the same way you enchant anything else. I'm not 100% on the pricing, but going off the character builder I think the cost of the...superiorness is included, so it would only be 360gp for a +1 accurate orb.

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    Default Re: 4e ways to increase attack rolls as wizard

    Quote Originally Posted by malachi View Post
    @Sipex
    I kind of suck at tactics.
    Also (from your earlier post), it hadn't occurred to me to do monster checks. That would help a lot.

    @Fallbot
    (I believe the answer is probably yes, but) Can you have a magical superior implement? And would the cost just be the cost of the magical implement (say, +1 orb) + the cost of the superior implement (for 360 + 30 for an orb)?

    @Jaidu
    What book are those feats from?
    Just like all weapons and implements in 4e the cost for a +1 accurate implement is the same as a standard +1 implement. The cost difference only occurs with the non magical stuff.

    Another idea is to get more Will based attacks (it tends to be very low) and better targeting of the NADS (non AC defences). Front line brutes and soldiers tend to have high fort which makes thunder wave less accurate (though that is when you need it most) while back line guys tend to have higher ref. Casters tend to have a high will. So front line will is king. Back line fort tends to be better and do not use a will attack on the mindflayer.

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    Default Re: 4e ways to increase attack rolls as wizard

    Quote Originally Posted by malachi View Post
    I kind of suck at tactics.
    Then wizard might not be the class for you. It is one of the harder classes to play, relatively speaking.

    Also, ask yourself what level enemies you're facing, and whether you simply may have been unlucky for a session.
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    Default Re: 4e ways to increase attack rolls as wizard

    Also if your DM is alright with this and you really care more about accuracy than your secondary effects you could bring your int to 20 and lower some of your other stats. Wizards do well with max int.

    It is slightly heavy handed but it would help a little.

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    Default Re: 4e ways to increase attack rolls as wizard

    Either the monster defenses are slightly wonky, or you're just having a run of bad luck. (Ask the DM after the fights if you can compare your to hit against their defenses and work out the hit rate. If it's pretty close to 50% or so, don't sweat it - 4e tends to average around that, especially at lower levels before differentiation sets in.) The aformentioned Expertise feats and superior implements are your best bet otherwise - 18 is a respectable stat to hit with at LV 1. There's headbands of intellect (+1 to hit with psychic powers) or something along that name, but they're LV 10 magic items, I think. (Really missing compendium access or an SRD to reference).

    There's a bit of a meme in my 4e group of the Warlock's Curse - every warlock player will spend two sessions after starting the character hitting NOTHING. (I was the first person to fall under this - spent two sessions never hitting anything or being hit by anything. At all.) Luck is easy to rationalize into build quality, in a positive or negative way.

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    Default Re: 4e ways to increase attack rolls as wizard

    It might just be a first level thing. At first level, every monster you face is going to be your level or higher. Your DM couldn't throw a lower level monster at you even if he wanted. Once you start to level up, the DM would have a larger selection of monsters to throw at you and would likely have a more even mix of higher/lower level monsters in the encounter.

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    Default Re: 4e ways to increase attack rolls as wizard

    @Gourdcaptain
    50% hit rate is normal? In that case, I'm going to blame it on bad rolls. I think we're building up our share of bad luck memes (first strike of ranger daily power and dragonborn breath to name two).
    I might be able to see if the defenses are wonky after our next session; I'm expecting at least one more fight with these guys. I'm pretty sure that the DM'll reuse those monsters at least once (we have another day of travel with the cabbage wagon before returning the artifact that the demons are after).

    @MeeposFire
    So Will is good against meat shields and archers, Ref is good against meat shields and casters, and fort is good against archers and casters? Is that a mostly valid simplification?

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    Default Re: 4e ways to increase attack rolls as wizard

    Beyond Expertise, Superior Implement, Enlarge Spell, and various niche build feats (Draconic Spellcaster, Gnome Phantasmist), no, there's not much else you can do.
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    Default Re: 4e ways to increase attack rolls as wizard

    Hit rate at around 50% is normal for most 4e characters. Highly optimized characters can push their hit rate to 70-80% or higher but most conventional characters would be around 40-60%.

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    Default Re: 4e ways to increase attack rolls as wizard

    +1 to randomness bad/good luck sometimes. One session of 8 hours or so I was knocked to negative hit points every single encounter (I got crit a lot). I barely did any damage at all (like 10 points the entire time). Whereas the rest of my party was the opposite, they had very similar defenses but were missed nearly the entire time. Even on traps where it only hits one person in the party (So I had like a 1/6 chance to get hit) I got hit every single time. It was so sucky.

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    Default Re: 4e ways to increase attack rolls as wizard

    High accuracy is easier to obtain using weapon wielders. Magic hass less avenues for accuracy optimization though it also has some nice stuff going for it (such as being able to up the size of a burst).

    Slayer, scouts, hunters, avengers, and rogues have some of the best accuracy in the game.
    Last edited by MeeposFire; 2011-02-10 at 03:15 PM.

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    Default Re: 4e ways to increase attack rolls as wizard

    Feats are of great assistance, most notably implement expertise and it's variations. Work with your party leaders if you have them, they may be able to provide bonuses at crucial times and help set up a devastating combo.

    Combat advantage is a +2 to attack rolls, though gaining combat advantage can be complicated for a level 1 wizard. I would suggest using stealth. You may be able to get a bonus on your first attack of the encounter vs. unobservant critters. Without training, this tactic is not highly effective though.

    Attacking non armour defences requires a little experience. Remember that you can ask to make a knowledge check about a monster as a free action. This could provide clues as to what the vulnerabilities of the monster are. This comes in handy not only for determining defences, but what kind of energy resistances and vulnerabilities a monster may possess.

    Generally brute and soldier monsters have a high fortitude defence. Artillery and Lurkers have high Reflex. Controllers and Leader types have high Will. At lower levels, Will is commonly a low defence for many monsters. Far easier to target than Fortitude.

    Retraining an at-will power might be the solution. At least until you can afford to invest in more accuracy via feats and items.

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    Default Re: 4e ways to increase attack rolls as wizard

    Hi, If you aren't into tactics then wizard is not the best class for you.

    As for accuracy, Implement users' AB are two to three points lower than Weapon Users' AB. This is mitigated by the fact that Implement Users attack NAD while weapon users don't. The disparity is smaller at low levels but at higher levels Reflex and Will han be up to five points lower than Fort and AC.

    You are consistently using Thunderwave, and it attacks the strongest NAD, usually a point or two lower than AC. Thunderwave is anawesome spell for battlefield arrangement but if you want to hit a good 80% of the time, choose winged horde, which is an expandable attack vs. Will. Thunderwave is also a close burst and it means that you will actually be within three squares of the opponent! Winged Horde also has a better range, ranged burst.

    Versatile Expertise (Staff or Dagger/Implement of Choice) plus Suyperior implement Accurate Wand/staff/orb raises your accuracy by up two within paragon.
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    Default Re: 4e ways to increase attack rolls as wizard

    I'd say a hit rate of about 60% is closer to baseline.

    Average level 1 NAD is 13, so with just a +4 from Int your Wizard should be hitting on a 9+, so 60%

    As other have said, given that there are no lower level monsters you're probably fighting some higher level monsters, so you're probably closer to 50% at the moment.

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    Default Re: 4e ways to increase attack rolls as wizard

    As others have pointed out, boosting your accuracy might not be the real fix.

    First, saying that you're missing 2/3 of the time doesn't really mean anything - if you're rolling 5s, there's a good chance you'll miss. That's just the luck of the dice.

    Secondly, you won't get that +10 bonus at 1st level that a Fighter might get. Just isn't going to happen. But, as others have pointed out, you're attacking NADs, which *can* be lower.

    As an example, a level 3 Orc Raider has AC 17. With a +4 to hit, that means you need a 13 or higher to hit. His Fortitude is 15, meaning you need an 11 or higher. STill not great.

    Reflex is 14, meaning you need a 10. Hey! You're in the 50/50 range! But his will is only 12 - so with a bare +4 to hit, which is level 1, 18 stat, no other bonuses - you're hitting on an 8 or better. That's pretty good.

    What this means is being effective isn't so much about maximizing your stats, as it is power and target selection. Don't use Thunderwave against the big beefy guys, they'll just laugh it off. Do use it against the frail, fast guys.

    Fort is probably the worst NAD to attack as a general, all-purpose ability, as it tends to have the highest of the defenses - attacking a fort-heavy monster with a fort-targetting ability is worse than attacking a fast one with reflex, basically.

    The other problem with Thunderwave is that it attacks Fort, and due to the fact that it's a close blast, you're likely to be hitting soldiers/brutes with it - which have high Fort. It's pretty good for blowing skirmishers back, though.
    Last edited by kyoryu; 2011-02-10 at 07:29 PM.

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    HalflingRangerGuy

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    Default Re: 4e ways to increase attack rolls as wizard

    A human with 20 Int, 13 secondary with Expertise and Accurate implement proficiency will have an AB of +7. Against the aforementioned Orc raider, that's 70% hit chance. Not a lot better. its tactics that win the game. Instead of Accurate Implement, How about ranged advantage. Then if your friends flank a baddie, your hit rate is at 75%. Lolz.
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    Default Re: 4e ways to increase attack rolls as wizard

    I know I'm rehashing some points already made, but to optimize your attack rolls as a wizard:

    Maximize Int as much as you can
    Expertise
    Accurate Superior Impliement
    Always get just basic +x impliments and get them as soon as you can
    Know enemy roles, try to remember which ones have low ref, fort or will.
    If you don't know a foe's lowest defense, generally will is best (unless it's magical), followed by ref. Fort is usually the highest defence.
    I forget the feat names, but there are two feats that make getting combat advantage easier for certain types of wizards: one gives you CA against slowed opponents, the other gives you CA against targets you hit with an illusion
    Enlarge spell -> more attacks = more hits
    Keep in mind some paragon paths will eventually up your to hit ability as well
    If your fellow PCs are nice they might be able to find ways to give you bonuses to hit or combat advantage

    Other than that... all I can say is that wizards aren't meant to have great attack rolls. There isn't a lot you can do to optimize attack rolls as a wizard. On the other hand there is a lot you can do to make your attacks very nasty when they hit (and sometimes when they miss too). With my wizard I found it best to focus on making my attacks as destructive and widespread as possible - if I was lucky with my attack rolls I could outdamage the party's stikers (and ruin the enemy's turn).
    Last edited by rayne_dragon; 2011-02-10 at 08:17 PM.
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    Default Re: 4e ways to increase attack rolls as wizard

    Distant Advantage and Viscious Advantage are other good feats to pick up. Also, go after anyone presenting combat advantage. That +2 always seems to ikick in when you need it.

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    Default Re: 4e ways to increase attack rolls as wizard

    Another unsaid thing is that older monsters had more deviance in defenses hence why fort is considered the most common highest NAD as that is true in MM1. In MM3 and onward this trend has decreased so this is not as true. Unfortunately there are more monsters in the old style than the new and you are more likely to fight those monsters. New style is found in the Monster Vault, MM3, and the Dark Sun setting.

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