Creating an Arcane Trikster

[JohnDaBarr]

Ok going to play the damn AT in the next campaign so Im interested in any useful tips??

planing to take 3 lvl rogue, 5 lvl wiz and rest the AT.

and could the AT be used as a good ray specialist.

and last what rays to use exept the Scorching Ray, Ray of Exhaustion, Ray of Enfeeblement.

[Psyren]

What books do you have?

The true "ray specialist" is Spellwarp Sniper from Complete Scoundrel. Another great class to add in is Unseen Seer from Complete Mage.

Also, don't forget that you can sneak attack with Orbs, too. (This can be more useful because Orbs ignore spell resistance.)

[JohnDaBarr]

well I have most of the books but the campaing is a little restricted, we are using only te basic stuff like PH, PHII, DM Guide and some others. Tome of battle and Tome of magic are not to be used lol DM choice

[Psyren]

How about Completes? Spell Compendium? Those are really all you need.

[Keld Denar]

Yea, the trick is to keep your caster levels. Unseen Seer in Comple Mage is an excellent PrC. Its great for getting into Arcane Trickster with only a single rogue level, but its also a very nice PrC in its own respect.

Also, Spell Compendium is a must. It literally triples the number of available ray spells for you to snipe with. Remember, you have to qualify for ranged SAs, so you'll want spells like Greater Invisibility, or to flat-foot your foes with a little Greasy action.

[JohnDaBarr]

yep we can use them

well anyway my AT really doesn't needs to be a ray specialist im simply tryng that option so Im opet to advices.

really didnt know how to play that class and its sounds fun to play it so ray specialist was just a idea how.

[JohnDaBarr]

Yea, the trick is to keep your caster levels. Unseen Seer in Comple Mage is an excellent PrC. Its great for getting into Arcane Trickster with only a single rogue level, but its also a very nice PrC in its own respect.

Also, Spell Compendium is a must. It literally triples the number of available ray spells for you to snipe with. Remember, you have to qualify for ranged SAs, so you'll want spells like Greater Invisibility, or to flat-foot your foes with a little Greasy action.

well yeah I know that planing on using Practiced Spellcaster
(Spellcraft: 4 ranks Choose one of your spellcasting classes. The spells you cast from this class have +4 Caster level (up to
your number of HD).
This feat helps multiclassed characters.)
so with it you dont lose caster lvls

[Keld Denar]

Simple build:

Rogue1/Wizard4/UnseenSeer10/ArcaneTrickster5

Take Practiced Spellcaster at 3 to cover the CL loss from the rogue and USS levels. You'll cast as a 19th level wizard with a CL of 20 for non-divinations and CL of 23 for divinations. As your USS advanced learning spells, pick up Hunter's Eye (PHBII), Divine Insight (CDivine), and then maybe something like Gravestrike (SpC). Everything else is up to you.

I'd suggest being a specialist Conjourer. That'll give you a few more spells per day, and there are a lot of good ranged touch attacks in the Conjouration school.

[gorfnab]

Here's a handbook that may be of use to you: Sneak Attacking Spellcasters

Build suggestions:
Ray Focused - Spellthief 1/ Wizard 5/ Spellwarp Sniper 5/ Unseen Seer 9 (or Unseen Seer 5/ Arcane Trickster 4)
Utility Focused - Spellthief 1/ Wizard 5 (Spontaneous Divination ACF from Complete Champion) / Unseen Seer 10/ Arcane Trickster 4
The Master Spellthief feat from Complete Scoundrel will keep your caster level in check and let you wear light armor.

[JohnDaBarr]

Here's a handbook that may be of use to you: Sneak Attacking Spellcasters

Build suggestions:
Ray Focused - Spellthief 1/ Wizard 5/ Spellwarp Sniper 5/ Unseen Seer 9 (or Unseen Seer 5/ Arcane Trickster 4)
Utility Focused - Spellthief 1/ Wizard 5 (Spontaneous Divination ACF from Complete Champion) / Unseen Seer 10/ Arcane Trickster 4
The Master Spellthief feat from Complete Scoundrel will keep your caster level in check and let you wear light armor.

hmm looks interesting but can i manage to use Rog1/Wiz5/SpellSnipe5 and the drop the USS and go for 9 lvl of Arcane Trickster??

[Frog Dragon]

hmm looks interesting but can i manage to use Rog1/Wiz5/SpellSnipe5 and the drop the USS and go for 9 lvl of Arcane Trickster??

No, you can't, because Spellwarp Sniper doesn't actually give SA, but instead gives Sudden Raystrike, which would not qualify for Arcane Trickster. If you want to take Arcane Trickster, you'd have to either take 2 more levels of rogue (not a good idea), or a level of Unseen Seer (better idea). Unseen Seer is better anyways, since Arcane Trickster only offers 4+Int/Level skill points. Not fun on a rogue type. Going Rog 1/Wiz 5/SWS 5/USS 1/Arc Tricks 8 does offer you +8d6 of SA-like bonus damage, compared to the Rog 1/Wiz 5/SWS 5/USS 9 having +7d6. The latter has a bunch more skillpoints though.

[Cog]

well yeah I know that planing on using Practiced Spellcaster... so with it you dont lose caster lvls

It's important to keep spellcaster levels as well; Practiced Spellcaster doesn't give you any higher-level spells or any more spells per day.

Is there some particular reason you want to use Arcane Trickster over Unseen Seer?

[Keld Denar]

Unseen Seer is really the superior choice. It may not look like it, but it is. The key element to look for here is the Advanced Learning feature. You can learn ANY divination spell, regardless of list. Now, divinations have a bad rap. Most people think they are just for peeking at your neighbor through the curtains or calling Pelor on the big golden phone, but if you crack open a few other books, you'll find some really awesome divinations. Hunter's Eye is the biggest cooker. It gives you +1d6 sneak attack per 3 CLs for 1 round, and it stacks with all your other SA. Its a Ranger2 spell from the PHBII. Think about it...1d6/3 CLs, its a swift action to cast, and it can potentially affect all of your attacks in a round. So even if USS results in slightly less base SA dice than AT, it has the potential to overshoot AT significantly, which is a good thing. Divine Insight is another gem. Cleric2 from Complete Divine, it lasts for HOURS per level, and you can discharge it at any time for what caps at a +15 Insight bonus on any skill check. Pull off that spectacular bluff, or steady your hand for the Indiana Jones style disable device roll. Huge buff.

Those two spells alone make USS better than everything AT gets, and then some. Also, you get 1 more Advanced Learning, which can be any number of really good spells.

[JohnDaBarr]

well Arcane Trickster is my try to play a dependable caster (not necessary a ray specialist) with some useful skills (nobody 's gonna be a rogue in the party btw lol)
with some utility spells you can really change the battle and a bit later with some good metamagic you can use 1 or 2 spell for good dmg
and skills are well useful bigtime always XD

[Keld Denar]

Thats all well and good...except Unseen Seer is pretty much identical in that role, except a little better. It's also easier to qualify for, which means even if you just use it as a stepping stone into Arcane Trickster, you're still a bit ahead in terms of casting, and casting is where your real power comes from.

[Draz74]

No, you can't, because Spellwarp Sniper doesn't actually give SA, but instead gives Sudden Raystrike, which would not qualify for Arcane Trickster. If you want to take Arcane Trickster, you'd have to either take 2 more levels of rogue (not a good idea), or a level of Unseen Seer (better idea).

Or a level of another class that grants Sneak Attack, such as Assassin. (The classic "optimized Core-Only skillmonkey" build is Rogue 1 / Wizard 4 / Assassin 1 / Arcane Trickster 10 / Wizard 4. Since the OP seems to have a slight aversion to non-Core material, maybe this will suit his fancy.)

[JohnDaBarr]

hmmm isnt there been some book that released 3 tipes of Arcane Trikster like one Arcane Trikster who's better with spells one better with skills and one better with combat??

[Keld Denar]

There are a few different "arcane rogue" type PrCs, yes. Arcane Trickster is kinda a middle road, being decently good at both. Unseen Seer (CMage) is more of a caster focus, but can still bring the hurt. Spellwarped Sniper (CScound) is a ray specialist, striking from afar. Daggerspell Mage (CAdv) is almost more of a gish class, focusing on casting and Two Weapon Fighting with daggers.

Those are the main PrCs that fit into the archtype. Granted, if you really want to be more martially focused, blending classes like Spellsword (CWarrior) or Abjurant Champion (CChamp) steer you away from the skill focus, but give you more close combat abilities.

There isn't really any one book with all of the roguey/caster PrCs in it though. They are spread out.

[dextercorvia]

hmmm isnt there been some book that released 3 tipes of Arcane Trikster like one Arcane Trikster who's better with spells one better with skills and one better with combat??

I think you are thinking of Complete Scoundrel's Trickster line: Battle Trickster, Magical Trickster, and Uncanny Trickster. The tricks being referred to here are Skill Tricks. Uncanny Trickster could be used to 2/3 advance an existing AT like PrC, but there are enough of them between, Unseen Seer, Arcane Trickster, and Spellwarp Sniper, that that shouldn't be necessary.

Edit: Oh I forgot about Daggerspell Mage...

[Kansaschaser]

I think you are thinking of Complete Scoundrel's Trickster line: Battle Trickster, Magical Trickster, and Uncanny Trickster. The tricks being referred to here are Skill Tricks. Uncanny Trickster could be used to 2/3 advance an existing AT like PrC, but there are enough of them between, Unseen Seer, Arcane Trickster, and Spellwarp Sniper, that that shouldn't be necessary.

Edit: Oh I forgot about Daggerspell Mage...

How about Rogue 1 / Wizard 4 / Unseen Seer 5 / Arcane Trickster 7 / Uncanny Trickster 3? Is it possible to add the +1 existing class abilites from the Uncanny Trickster to the Arcane Trickster, or do you have to add it to a base class?

[JohnDaBarr]

ok to be honest the more i look at the USS the more I like it but it the damn CL loss i a pain, and yeah it can be easy fiksed with Practised Spellcaster but thats a feat lost, because there are good othere feats....

well im planing to go Rog1/Wiz5 for the start and with Point Blank Shot, Split Ray and Reach Spell and an Arcane Thesis on the spell Combust (1d8/lvl, touch, ref save partial, and 1d6 fire dmg per turn) so 14d8 on lvl6/CL5, later that can be 20d8 maximized (if on lvl5 Spellwarp Snipe can empover for free)
and if DM allows useing Easy Metamagic can get your lvl req for SplitR or ReachS while using Arcane Thesis on 0 lol

anyway this is ofc my heavy artillery for big trouble, planing on using simple utility spells most of the time

[Keld Denar]

Its only a caster level loss, not a spellcaster level loss. There is a difference. Caster level affects things like damage dice, range, duration, etc. Spellcaster level affects spells known and spells/day and maximum spell level known. In addition, a loss of a spellcaster level generally loses you the caster level associated with it. Practiced Spellcaster fixes caster level loss, but not spellcaster level loss, if that makes any sense.

And you'll probably take Practiced Spellcaster anyway. If you lose even 1-2 spellcaster levels, its worthwhile to take Practiced Spellcaster simply for the extra duration and range and dice. A Rogue1/Wizard4/USS10/AT5 build loses one spellcaster level and 3 caster levels, for a total of 4 caster levels lost. Practiced Spellcaster fixes exactly 4 caster levels. So, as long as you are taking Practiced Spellcaster to fix your lost rogue level, you get the 3 CL losses from USS for free!

Another great spell to look at, if you go with this build, is Cloud of Knives in the PHBII. Its a Conjouration that allows you to shoot 1 free knife per round at a foe. FREE. Thats in addition to whatever other spells you are sniping with. Since it has an attack roll, it gets SA damage, as long as your foe is flat footed. Its only level 2, so you could even eventually Persist it as an 8th level spell, which is all kinds of fun!

[stainboy]

well im planing to go Rog1/Wiz5 for the start and with Point Blank Shot, Split Ray and Reach Spell and an Arcane Thesis on the spell Combust (1d8/lvl, touch, ref save partial, and 1d6 fire dmg per turn) so 14d8 on lvl6/CL5, later that can be 20d8 maximized (if on lvl5 Spellwarp Snipe can empover for free)
and if DM allows useing Easy Metamagic can get your lvl req for SplitR or ReachS while using Arcane Thesis on 0 lol

Best part of this is that Spellwarp would take the Reflex save off of Combust. Even though it's already a ray.

You might regret spending a feat on it in the long run though. It's typed damage that allows spell resistance, and at some levels Scorching Ray will make better use of your sneak attack dice. By all means USE Combust, I just wouldn't specialize in it.

[Last Laugh]

IT hasn't been mentioned yet, but Ocular Spell converts a spell into a ray attack, and allows you to discharge 2 rays at once (Which you charge pre-combat)

This lets you sneak attack multiple times, and deal nice damage. It's found in Lords of Madness, Spell level +2 metamagic.

Consider combining it with quicken for a cool scorching ray nova. (I'd suggest Wings of Flurry, but it's sorc only)

[JohnDaBarr]

IT hasn't been mentioned yet, but Ocular Spell converts a spell into a ray attack, and allows you to discharge 2 rays at once (Which you charge pre-combat)

This lets you sneak attack multiple times, and deal nice damage. It's found in Lords of Madness, Spell level +2 metamagic.

Consider combining it with quicken for a cool scorching ray nova. (I'd suggest Wings of Flurry, but it's sorc only)

nice lol still what you get sneak attack dmg on every attack in your round or it is only apply for the first one (with rays you get SA and/or everything similar on every ray or just the first one)

and to compare yeah Scorching Ray is really a sweet spell but it gives top 16d6 with split ray while the combust goes to 20d8

and for the spell resistance well you have some good spell that reduce SP and you can always use orb of fire/ice etc...

[Keld Denar]

Spells that have multiple rays are considered "volley" attacks, by the rules in Complete Arcane. You only ever get precision damage on the first hit with a volley attack unless you have a feat or ability that overrides this (like Greater Multishot).

So the two rays you'd get from Occular Spell would be considered a volley, as would the extra ray you get from Split Ray, and any of the multiple rays from Scorching Ray.

As I mentioned, Cloud of Knives is one of the best SA attack spells, since it fires every round. So the first round, its like SAing with any other spell, and every round after that, you are essentially getting 2 sneak attacks per round, one from the CoK, one from the spell you cast that round. Get Quickened spells and you'll be up to 3 SAs per round, on top of all of the spell damage and whatnot.

[Last Laugh]

Spells that have multiple rays are considered "volley" attacks, by the rules in Complete Arcane. You only ever get precision damage on the first hit with a volley attack unless you have a feat or ability that overrides this (like Greater Multishot).

So the two rays you'd get from Occular Spell would be considered a volley, as would the extra ray you get from Split Ray, and any of the multiple rays from Scorching Ray.

As I mentioned, Cloud of Knives is one of the best SA attack spells, since it fires every round. So the first round, its like SAing with any other spell, and every round after that, you are essentially getting 2 sneak attacks per round, one from the CoK, one from the spell you cast that round. Get Quickened spells and you'll be up to 3 SAs per round, on top of all of the spell damage and whatnot.

Oh darnit, I knew about volleys, for some reason I didn't thank that ocular spell would count.

It's still a fun feat, but less useful than I made it out to be. (2 spells as a full-round action is pretty cool)

[dextercorvia]

Oh darnit, I knew about volleys, for some reason I didn't thank that ocular spell would count.

It's still a fun feat, but less useful than I made it out to be. (2 spells as a full-round action is pretty cool)

I think you'd actually get two sneak attacks with Ocular. The rule is 1SA per spell per round or 1SA per action taking less time than a FRA whichever is more restrictive.

So you could fire off a knife (Free), cast a quickened spell (Swift) and let loose your two eye rays (Full Round) for 4 sneak attacks in a round. The Ocular think is only reliable 1/encounter anyway.

[Keld Denar]

Occular turns one spell into two rays, which have to be released at the same time. Sounds like a volley to me, regardless of the action it took to release it. A sorcerer applying Empower Spell causes on the fly causes his Scorching Ray to take a full round action. That doesn't make it any less of a volley. Its no different with Occular Spell.

You got a citation for your fancy rule there? Cause I'm pretty sure you can trigger SA as many times in a round as you qualify. The only limiter is what is explicitly called out in CArcane, and that is that volley spells only get precision damage once.

[dextercorvia]

Occular turns one spell into two rays, which have to be released at the same time. Sounds like a volley to me, regardless of the action it took to release it. A sorcerer applying Empower Spell causes on the fly causes his Scorching Ray to take a full round action. That doesn't make it any less of a volley. Its no different with Occular Spell.

You got a citation for your fancy rule there? Cause I'm pretty sure you can trigger SA as many times in a round as you qualify. The only limiter is what is explicitly called out in CArcane, and that is that volley spells only get precision damage once.

Ocular holds two spells, one in each eye.

The "fancy rule" is in the RC. I'm AFB, but it is under Precision Damage. Paraphrasing, it says something like, 'If you make multiple attacks as part of any action that takes less time than a full-round action (swift or standard eg.) only apply precision damage to the first attack of that action.'