[3.5] Need a monster.

[Drakevarg]

So, not gonna bore the lot of ye with ramblings on the metaphysics of the scenario, but here's the basic rundown:

About a hundred-ish years ago, a church burned down and killed everyone inside. A memorial was put up in the ruins of the church in the form of 100 candles. The souls of those who died appreciated this and nurtured the flames, keeping them burning for all these years. Each year, however, one of the candles went out as the spirits slowly begen to feel forgotten by those left behind. Now there's only one candle still burning, and the spirits are growing restless.

So, my plan is for this first session of the new low-magic campaign I'm running is for this small village to be overrun by these pissed off spirits while the PCs are staying there. Only problem is, I can't decide how I want to represent the spirits. Ghosts seem obvious, but have a lot of extra abilities that I don't really want. Plus considering the PCs are 3rd level, I don't think they can take on a large force of ghosts.

Thing is, I want these things to be incoporeal and basically force the PCs to prepare for a seige or flee, but I also don't want my PCs to get insta-gibbed for being in the same room as one. Any ideas?

[Adamantrue]

Savage Progressions did the Ghost Savage Species style. Perhaps you could apply the first level of the Template-Class, to get the effect without all those extras?

[Drakevarg]

Alright, probably should have said this in the first place:

Please do not suggest any material not in the books listed in my sig. Thank you.

[TroubleBrewing]

Libris Mortis has the Ghost Brute template. Seems good.

[Drakevarg]

Libris Mortis has the Ghost Brute template. Seems good.

True, but it's also stuffed full of supah powahs. Of course, I could just not use those, but that almost seems too easy.

[Sillycomic]

If you want to put them in a fleeing situation, then it really doesn't matter what they're fighting, does it?

Allips, Ghosts, and shadows are all decent. I would say a 3rd level party could take down 1 or 2 of these, in any combination, so long as they're decently optimized and know they're fighting incorporeal before hand.

Just throw one or two at them, let them see how hard it is, and let them see there are 90 more just around the corner.

That is kinda hard to make your group fight a bunch of incorporeal in a low magic campaign. Magic is what hurts ghosts and such the most. In fact, I do believe with the half chance of a non magical weapon hitting them, you are dooming your group no matter what you throw at them.

To seige against incorporeal? Unless you got a couple of priests willing to bless everything around them, I am not sure that will work. You can't lock anything up against creatures that can float through walls. Their mundane weapons are almost useless.

The good news is, this is definitely the cleric's time to shine in the campaign! Go cleric!

[Drakevarg]

If you want to put them in a fleeing situation, then it really doesn't matter what they're fighting, does it?

Allips, Ghosts, and shadows are all decent. I would say a 3rd level party could take down 1 or 2 of these, in any combination, so long as they're decently optimized and know they're fighting incorporeal before hand.

Just throw one or two at them, let them see how hard it is, and let them see there are 90 more just around the corner.

I like the Shadows idea. Especially if I made them only visable as cast shadows, slinking along the wall and the like.

That is kinda hard to make your group fight a bunch of incorporeal in a low magic campaign. Magic is what hurts ghosts and such the most. In fact, I do believe with the half chance of a non magical weapon hitting them, you are dooming your group no matter what you throw at them.

You're thinking invisible creatures. Incorporeal creatures are immune to non-magical attacks, period. Fortunately, 3/6 of the PCs are Warlocks. Unfortunately, magi are illegal in this setting and they'll have a death sentance on their heads should they be caught using magic.

To seige against incorporeal? Unless you got a couple of priests willing to bless everything around them, I am not sure that will work. You can't lock anything up against creatures that can float through walls. Their mundane weapons are almost useless.

I was gonna have it so they can't walk through solid objects, but weapon can't hurt them. Why? Because magic has it's own rules, and little time for the world's.

The good news is, this is definitely the cleric's time to shine in the campaign! Go cleric!

No such thing as clerics in this setting, unfortunately.

[Sillycomic]

Wow, that's kinda funny. Low magic campaign where magic in general is banned... plus 3 of the 6 are magic users? Plus no clerics allowed at all?

What is the rest of the group?

I imagine any sort of cleric-like items are gone as well? Flasks of holy water? That just lowered their chances considerably.

Why are you doing this? You seem to be dooming your characters from the start. The only way they can effectively fight these creatures is to reveal themselves as magic users, which is a death sentence.

Thank you for making them unable to move through solid objects. It makes it possible for people to cower in the corners of basements I suppose.

So, the only option is to run then. And like I said before, if they're just running it really doesn't matter what you put in front of them, they're just going to run.

[Drakevarg]

Wow, that's kinda funny. Low magic campaign where magic in general is banned... plus 3 of the 6 are magic users? Plus no clerics allowed at all?

What is the rest of the group?

I tried to make Warlocks as unappealing as I could, but it would seem infinite blasting was too good to pass up.

Party is thus:
Warrior 3
Rogue 3
Rogue 3
Warrior 1/Warlock 2
Rogue 1/Warlock 2
Warlock 3

Warriors and Rogues are both homebrew versions, found in my sig.

I imagine any sort of cleric-like items are gone as well? Flasks of holy water? That just lowered their chances considerably.

No supernatural or alchemical items of any sort.

Why are you doing this? You seem to be dooming your characters from the start.

Because they are not the big strapping heroes here. The universe is vast and can **** on them at any moment, and the only way through is wit, tenacity and luck. But, enough gaming philosophy.

The only way they can effectively fight these creatures is to reveal themselves as magic users, which is a death sentence.

Or they could assure no one is watching, then use magic. Or use magic, then kill all witnesses (two of the warlocks are utter psychos raised to kill since childhood, and the other is only slightly more sane).

[Thurbane]

I always enjoy the vigorous debate in Psycho's adventure advice threads.

[Drakevarg]

I always enjoy the vigorous debate in Psycho's adventure advice threads.

That may or may not be half the reason I start these threads. Just because I shrug off the crys of "this is a bad idea!" doesn't mean I'm ignoring what people say.

[Sillycomic]

So if your gaming philosophy is that the world is a big old meanie and the only way for people to survive is by wits and luck... why are you trying to make their chances more reasonable?

I imagine the world being a big ole meanie and sending 99 ghosts after your party fits in perfectly with your gaming philosophy.

Good luck with this.

[Drakevarg]

So if your gaming philosophy is that the world is a big old meanie and the only way for people to survive is by wits and luck... why are you trying to make their chances more reasonable?

I imagine the world being a big ole meanie and sending 99 ghosts after your party fits in perfectly with your gaming philosophy.

Good luck with this.

'cause difficult and impossible are two different things.

[Sillycomic]

It doesn't matter if the encounter is difficult or impossible if the point is to make them run away... or cower in the basement.

If you want to make it a difficult encounter, send a dozen or so skeletons after them, to fight in waves.

If you want to make an impossible encounter, send some incorporeal creatures after adventurers with no divine help, no magic items, and make the only viable option to deal damage (magic) met with execution if anyone happens to witness it.

Seriously, you purposely tried to stop people from playing Warlocks knowing full well their first encounter was going to be against creatures that no rogue or warrior would be able to damage at all? I can't fathom this. You just made half of the party useless. Anyone who took the GM's advice of playing a warrior gets to run away or watch in frustration as people who took magic classes actually do something fun in the game.


You made this an impossible encounter. Now you want to dial it back because you realize you might kill your party before they get a chance to tell you what kind of boots they're wearing?

[Khatoblepas]

Don't make it a monster. At all. Ever. This is a bad idea. The Warlocks will be able to take it on while the rest of the party are useless (Also, death sentence for being useful against creatures noone else can fight? Looks like the world is as suicidal as the players for playing in these)

If you want to scare the players, making them flee (Again. Have you tried running a different style of campaign? This has been the setup for all of your last campaigns), make it a trap. In darkness, the players get assaulted (touch attacks for minor hp damage and maybe if they stay in the darkness too long, 1d2-1 Wisdom damage. Emphasis on minor. Do not kill them. DO NOT). In the light, the players are somewhat safe. Their torches don't last forever, so they gotta keep moving, finding something else to burn to keep them safe until morning. The reasoning being, the light makes them placated, and darkness reminds them of the lost candles.

There. That keeps the players occupied, the warriors not useless, and the creatures defendable in a siege or chase situation without making the party helpless. It's not as if the players have anything to do otherwise than run like sissies and die horribly. That's not fun at all.

[Drakevarg]

It doesn't matter if the encounter is difficult or impossible if the point is to make them run away... or cower in the basement.

You're missing my point. You're interpreting "victory" as "all enemies defeated." I am interpreting "victory" as "survival."

Seriously, you purposely tried to stop people from playing Warlocks knowing full well their first encounter was going to be against creatures that no rogue or warrior would be able to damage at all?

Not at all. The "discourage them from playing Warlocks" thing was over a month ago now. I came up with this encounter last night.

(Also, death sentence for being useful against creatures noone else can fight? Looks like the world is as suicidal as the players for playing in these)

That would be a valid concern if these things didn't only occur in isolated areas, with such little frequency that the village elder only remembers it from stories he heard as a child.

-stuff-

Interesting. Might use it.

[Lord_Gareth]

Psycho, I'd advocate caution. You have a storied history of running survival-horror encounters for action gamers, and also for overkill. Perhaps this is the tiniest bit too ambitious for a third level party?

[Drakevarg]

Psycho, I'd advocate caution. You have a storied history of running survival-horror encounters for action gamers, and also for overkill. Perhaps this is the tiniest bit too ambitious for a third level party?

Quite. Hence why I'm here asking for suggestions as to a way to fulfill my plans without gibbing everyone (unless they're stupid). I really do like that "fight off the darkness with torches" idea, though. Just have them survive 'til morning.

If I had more time to think of something else, I might. But the session is tomorrow so I've kinda just have to run with the material I have.

[true_shinken]

Candles that lasted for 100 years?
Those are some BIG candles alright.

[Claudius Maximus]

I would suggest making it somehow possible for the warriors to fight the spirits. Maybe something not exactly magical in the normal D&D sense, but still mildly supernatural. Maybe they can coat their weapons with the wax of the candles, allowing them to affect the spirits through the special significance they have to them. Maybe the spirits are vulnerable to/afraid of fire, as it was the cause of their death.

Perhaps they can "beat" the spirits through other means, such as proving to them that they are honored, or rebuilding/re-consecrating the temple, or something like that. Thus you can have it be slightly more cerebral than just facing very difficult fights and/or running away.

For the record I have no problem with your survival horror style, provided that's what your players want to participate in.

[Drakevarg]

Candles that lasted for 100 years?
Those are some BIG candles alright.

No, just normal candles that supernatural entities didn't want to go out.

Perhaps they can "beat" the spirits through other means, such as proving to them that they are honored, or rebuilding/re-consecrating the temple, or something like that. Thus you can have it be slightly more cerebral than just facing very difficult fights and/or running away.

I'll consider leaving that door open, should the players think to use it.

[Sillycomic]

How am I interpreting victory as defeating all enemies? I have said for quite a while there is nothing but survival in this situation.

You stacked all the odds against the players, so they're forced to survive by running away or hiding.

And again... my point is... if the only way to survive the night is to run away or hide, why do you want to tone down the monsters? It doesn't matter if it's a dozen wraiths or a couple of lesser shadows, the adventurers can't do anything to them anyway.

Is it more of a victory if the adventurers run away from the lesser shadows versus running away from wraiths?

[Drakevarg]

Is it more of a victory if the adventurers run away from the lesser shadows versus running away from wraiths?

Let's put it this way: versus shadows, if they make a mistake they have 12 seconds to fix it or they die. Versus wraiths, they have about half a second to fix it, or die.

Obviously this isn't a literal timescale, but do you get my meaning? Weaker monsters gives them a little more wiggle room between "doing exactly what I want them to" and "instant, horrible death."

[true_shinken]

No, just normal candles that supernatural entities didn't want to go out.

So in your low magic game, supernatural entities care about candles?

[Drakevarg]

So in your low magic game, supernatural entities care about candles?

These ones do. Most probably don't. Would you care for a long, rambling essay about how these entities behave?

[Force]

"doing exactly what I want them to"

*choo choo* So, you're not looking for a monster so much as a railroad engineer.

[true_shinken]

These ones do. Most probably don't. Would you care for a long, rambling essay about how these entities behave?

Not necessary, thanks. It's just very different from my DMing style. You're basically using supernatural stuff to move your plot whenever you need it but denying it to your players. I'm not saying it's wrong, it's just not how I do it and find it a bit weird. The whole thing about your plot and having the players do what you seems like a mistake, though. 'Do what I want or die' is not a real choice. This is just really heavy railroading in the end of the day.

EDIT: damn, ninja'd

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Modify an existing creature to suit the situation. Pick an incorporeal undead of an appropriate CR, in this case a Shadow will be sufficient, replace its Str damage touch with fire damage, and describe them as smoking, charred husks. Many of them will have regressed to only the memory of being trapped in the fire, and move about as though trying to escape. They've inadvertently started some small fires around town which so far have been easy to extinguish, and have occasionally hurt someone but fleeing from their screaming victims in confusion. Not extremely dangerous, but definitely something that needs to be dealt with.

A local Druid 4 intends to put these spirits to rest, one way or another. He's made extensive use of Bone Talismans to drive them away and has fashioned a bone weapon spear with which he intends to destroy them if necessary. He's summoned the occasional water elemental to douse a fire that threatened to get out of hand, and the townsfolk are impressed with his abilities but also fearful that he may further anger the spirits. He has charmed a medium viper which always seems to show up when he gets into trouble. The townsfolk think his bone magic and snake handling are quite strange, and while he doesn't associate with the townsfolk he views these spirits as a dangerous perversion of the natural order which must be set right.

[Sillycomic]

What are they going to do if they're in the same room with these things? You just want them to waste a few rounds running away? Seriously?

So you want these creatures to get right up next to the adventurers for a few rounds of "OMGWTFBBQ" before the players decide to run away.

Nope. I don't get it. I think you can make the exact same point if some old man just told the characters that there are wraiths running around and strange noises coming from that old church memorial. The players will run away or hide in the basement exactly as they would before.

Personally I think it would be better if the characters were told beforehand. It makes for a better scare when they are already cowering in the basement before you ever did anything other then tell them that, "The sun sets and an eerie calm surrounds you all. What do you do?"

Warrior: "I cower some more."

Warlock: "I know there are no priests, but I start praying anyway."

Rogue: "I pee myself. Does that help?"

[Drakevarg]

*choo choo* So, you're not looking for a monster so much as a railroad engineer.

No, I'm trying to find a cliff face wide enough that they can step off my rails without plummeting to their deaths.

-snip-

First part: awesome. Totally doing that.

Second part: Sorry, no Druids in this setting either. I think I'll stick to the "survive 'til dawn" thing.

Nope. I don't get it. I think you can make the exact same point if some old man just told the characters that there are wraiths running around and strange noises coming from that old church memorial. The players will run away or hide in the basement exactly as they would before.

Well, they'll be well aware something's wrong before the pissed off church-ghosts start killing everything. I'm fond of atmosphere.

Personally I think it would be better if the characters were told beforehand. It makes for a better scare when they are already cowering in the basement before you ever did anything other then tell them that, "The sun sets and an eerie calm surrounds you all. What do you do?"

Warrior: "I cower some more."

Warlock: "I know there are no priests, but I start praying anyway."

Rogue: "I pee myself. Does that help?"

Honestly, those reactions would make me ecstatic.