Confused about Masterwork vs. Enhancement Bonus

[Rasman]

Maybe I'm not thinking straight or maybe I'm dumb, but I'm just trying to get the pricing right.

Masterwork weapons give a +1 to attack rolls. They're not magically enhanced, they're just made really well.

All Magical Weapons are of Masterwork Quality, but their magical enhancement doesn't stack with the Masterwork +1. So...if you add a +1 enhancement to a masterwork weapon, like flaming, does it make it a +2 weapon and make it's cost 8000gp or is it the 2000gp for the +1?

[Drynwyn]

It is still a +1 weapon as far as price. also, all magic weapons MUST be masterwork, However, a few important things that make a +1 weapon as good as a flaming weapon:
-flaming weapon damage is elemental, and more likely to be ineffective against an enemy.
+1 weapons can overcome DR/magic., flaming weapons can't (because the flame is normal fire, like the fire from a fireball spell- it is magical n cause but not in effect.)
+1 weapons have a shot at hitting incorporeal/ethereal creatures ( I think. I can never keep the incorporeal/ethereal rules straight.)

[Rasman]

It is still a +1 weapon as far as price. also, all magic weapons MUST be masterwork, However, a few important things that make a +1 weapon as good as a flaming weapon:
-flaming weapon damage is elemental, and more likely to be ineffective against an enemy.
+1 weapons can overcome DR/magic., flaming weapons can't (because the flame is normal fire, like the fire from a fireball spell- it is magical n cause but not in effect.)
+1 weapons have a shot at hitting incorporeal/ethereal creatures ( I think. I can never keep the incorporeal/ethereal rules straight.)

I was really just using flaming as an example, to be honest. What I'm trying to build is a Hand Crossbow and I was trying to figure out what I could put on it and what it would cost me.

What I'd like on it is out of these options.
Magebane +1
Distance +1
Seeking +1
Collision+2
Paralyzing +2
Explosive - Ranged +3
Speed +3
Brilliant Energy +4
Tentacle +4

But I've only got around 5000gp to work with. So I'm pretty much stuck with a +1 of some type.

And technically I'm building two of them, so I could have just a Magical +1 and a Masterwork + Something Else.

[Stegyre]

All Magical Weapons are of Masterwork Quality, but their magical enhancement doesn't stack with the Masterwork +1. So...if you add a +1 enhancement to a masterwork weapon, like flaming, does it make it a +2 weapon and make it's cost 8000gp or is it the 2000gp for the +1?

That's an intriguing loophole you have. I was going to write that you cannot add flaming -- or any other enhancement -- to a weapon unless it is first enchanted with a +1 enhancement bonus, but RAW only requires that the weapon have a +1 enhancement bonus, and there's no reason I'm seeing (at least in the SRD) why the +1 enhancement bonus for being masterwork would not satisfy that prerequisite.

[sonofzeal]

A weapon must be magic (+1 enhancement bonus) before you can apply other magical effects to it. Yes, it sucks. Yes, it means that flaming swords cost 8000 minimum (unless you're using weapon crystals from MIC).

Add up all the pluses on the weapon to find the total price. A +3 Flaming (+1) Holy (+2) longsword has the price of a +6 longsword, or 72,000 gp.

That's an intriguing loophole you have. I was going to write that you cannot add flaming -- or any other enhancement -- to a weapon unless it is first enchanted with a +1 enhancement bonus, but RAW only requires that the weapon have a +1 enhancement bonus, and there's no reason I'm seeing (at least in the SRD) why the +1 enhancement bonus for being masterwork would not satisfy that prerequisite.

It's clearly not the way the DMG and SRD uses the language though. The first line of the SRD section says "magic weapons have enhancement bonuses ranging from +1 to +5." This clarifies the following line you're referring to.

[Scarlet-Devil]

Tentacle +4

Woah woah woah; what's the sauce on this Tentacle enhancement?

Edit: YEEAAAAH! Guess who just got a +4 racial bonus to strength!

[Stegyre]

It's clearly not the way the DMG and SRD uses the language though. The first line of the SRD section says "magic weapons have enhancement bonuses ranging from +1 to +5." This clarifies the following line you're referring to.

I agree that's RAI. I'm not sure that's RAW:

A magic weapon must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus to have any of the abilities listed on Table: Melee Weapon Special Abilities or Table: Ranged Weapon Special Abilities.

Nothing says the source of that +1 enhancement bonus needs to be magical, rather than, say, masterwork.

It's a stupid loophole, but RAW is full of such stupid loopholes.

[Rasman]

Woah woah woah; what's the sauce on this Tentacle enhancement?

Edit: YEEAAAAH! Guess who just got a +4 racial bonus to strength!

heh...hehehehehehehahahahahahahahahahaha...When I saw it...I just thought...do...want...

Shoot a target and rip its brain out isn't OP at all

My reason for the confusion is that with an Amulet of Mighty Fists, it states that it doesn't have to have the +1 Enhancement Bonus. That you can just have a Flaming/Shocking/Throwing/Wounding/Amulet of Mighty Fists.

[Scarlet-Devil]

heh...hehehehehehehahahahahahahahahahaha...When I saw it...I just thought...do...want...

Shoot a target and rip its brain out isn't OP at all

Where did you see it though? What book/web enhancement/etc is it from? Sounds like something Illithid related...

[Curmudgeon]

A magic weapon must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus to have any of the abilities listed on Table: Melee Weapon Special Abilities or Table: Ranged Weapon Special Abilities.

This requires an overall enhancement bonus. A +1 enhancement bonus applies both to attack and to damage. A masterwork weapon only has a bonus to attack, so it only halfway meets the requirement.

[sonofzeal]

Nothing says the source of that +1 enhancement bonus needs to be magical, rather than, say, masterwork.

It's a stupid loophole, but RAW is full of such stupid loopholes.

If you seriously want to be that pedantic....

Masterwork weapons
...wielding it provides a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls...

A masterwork weapon does not have a +1 enhancement bonus. Wielding one provides one, but that's a property of you weilding it and not of the weapon itself. The only property the weapon itself has is the "masterwork" property, whereas a +1 Longsword actually has a +1 enhancement bonus property. Thus, a +1 Longsword satisfies the condition for further enchantments but a Masterwork one does not.

Yes, this is being incredibly pedantic. But that's the natural result of the scortched-earth approach to optimization - if you try to be overly pedantic to twist the rules in your favour, the DM is within his rights to be overly pedantic straight back at you.

[Rasman]

If you seriously want to be that pedantic....

Masterwork weapons
...wielding it provides a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls...

A masterwork weapon does not have a +1 enhancement bonus. Wielding one provides one, but that's a property of you weilding it and not of the weapon itself. The only property the weapon itself has is the "masterwork" property, whereas a +1 Longsword actually has a +1 enhancement bonus property. Thus, a +1 Longsword satisfies the condition for further enchantments but a Masterwork one does not.

Yes, this is being incredibly pedantic. But that's the natural result of the scortched-earth approach to optimization - if you try to be overly pedantic to twist the rules in your favour, the DM is within his rights to be overly pedantic straight back at you.

heh...I think you misunderstand my intentions...I'm just trying to make sure I make the weapon properly and DON'T cheese it, but because the only item I'd ever dealt with this allowed it, I wasn't sure if it was an exception to the rule or not

[sonofzeal]

heh...I think you misunderstand my intentions...I'm just trying to make sure I make the weapon properly and DON'T cheese it, but because the only item I'd ever dealt with this allowed it, I wasn't sure if it was an exception to the rule or not

Whatever we eventually bash out on the pedanticness, just remember that standard Weapon Enhancement etiquette is for weapons to go "Masterwork -> +1 -> fancier stuff and maybe higher pluses", even though it means wasting the +1 attack bonus from Masterwork. That's the price of getting your weapon to count as "magic".