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  1. - Top - End - #301
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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: That's ONLY CR 9??? Let's Read: The Monster Manual II

    Wow, 19 all the way down to 13? I might actually use this against an ECL 11 party in a game I'm running right now...
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  2. - Top - End - #302
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    Default Re: That's ONLY CR 9??? Let's Read: The Monster Manual II

    I suggest lowering the SR slightly, then, unless they have Assay Spell Resistance. But its AC is terrible, and all it has going for it is its high HD, and thus decent saves (and even then, only Will is extraordinary).
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  3. - Top - End - #303
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    Default Re: That's ONLY CR 9??? Let's Read: The Monster Manual II

    Quote Originally Posted by LOTRfan View Post
    I suggest lowering the SR slightly, then, unless they have Assay Spell Resistance. But its AC is terrible, and all it has going for it is its high HD, and thus decent saves (and even then, only Will is extraordinary).
    No casters, actually. All psionics.
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  4. - Top - End - #304
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    Default Re: That's ONLY CR 9??? Let's Read: The Monster Manual II

    Yeah, this creature is mince meat.

    EDIT: I just realized that this statblock doesn't show the +60 extra hit points it gets due to the permanent desecration field around it. Give me a second to recalculate CR.
    Last edited by LOTRfan; 2011-06-20 at 06:10 PM.
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  5. - Top - End - #305
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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: That's ONLY CR 9??? Let's Read: The Monster Manual II

    Quote Originally Posted by LOTRfan View Post
    Yeah, this creature is mince meat.
    I'm throwing it their way 2 levels early, which will help it's survivability, and the CR 8 zombie horde will still sort of be relevant. I hope.

    They've thusfar been picking powers that are largely single-target high-damage powers. They're easily impressed by big numbers. I'm hoping that this will lead to their downfall when faced with tons of minion-type critters.
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  6. - Top - End - #306
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    Default Re: That's ONLY CR 9??? Let's Read: The Monster Manual II

    Not sure if you saw my edit, but I did the math again, with the +60 hit points included for the desecration that permanently permeates it. That brought the CR up by 3. Not sure if this will change your decision, but I felt I should bring it up.

    EDIT: If your characters like high-damage powers, though, I guess they should be okay.
    Last edited by LOTRfan; 2011-06-20 at 06:15 PM.
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  7. - Top - End - #307
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    Default Re: That's ONLY CR 9??? Let's Read: The Monster Manual II

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey McBannert View Post
    No casters, actually. All psionics.
    SR still applies, unless you're not using transparency.

  8. - Top - End - #308
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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: That's ONLY CR 9??? Let's Read: The Monster Manual II

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateral View Post
    SR still applies, unless you're not using transparency.
    They're still pretty low-level, so it hasn't become an issue yet. If I decide to use transparency, the Psion will probably just try to Overchannel his way through it. Failing that, they'll just let the PsyWar beat it to death.

    If not, then they'll steamroll it.

    *Sigh.* I need to use transparency, don't I?
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    Default Re: That's ONLY CR 9??? Let's Read: The Monster Manual II

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey McBannert View Post
    They're still pretty low-level, so it hasn't become an issue yet. If I decide to use transparency, the Psion will probably just try to Overchannel his way through it. Failing that, they'll just let the PsyWar beat it to death.

    If not, then they'll steamroll it.

    *Sigh.* I need to use transparency, don't I?
    If you don't, it'll seriously unbalance the game unless you're using just as many monsters with PR as with SR. Plus a host of other problems.

  10. - Top - End - #310
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    Default Re: That's ONLY CR 9??? Let's Read: The Monster Manual II

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateral View Post
    If you don't, it'll seriously unbalance the game unless you're using just as many monsters with PR as with SR. Plus a host of other problems.
    Sonofacrap.

    Well, I guess this helps the Lurk out. He took Use Psionic Device, even though I pretty explicitly told him there would be few, if any, in the game.
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  11. - Top - End - #311
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    Default Re: That's ONLY CR 9??? Let's Read: The Monster Manual II

    Use partial transparency. It's, like, normal transparency, but -10 or some such.

    I'm gonna add those birds into my latest death trap dungeon. x3

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    Default Re: That's ONLY CR 9??? Let's Read: The Monster Manual II

    Quote Originally Posted by NineThePuma View Post
    Use partial transparency. It's, like, normal transparency, but -10 or some such.
    But a -10 makes it ridiculously easy to bypass; you might as well not even have it.

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    Default Re: That's ONLY CR 9??? Let's Read: The Monster Manual II

    How about a compromise, creatures with SR have their normal SR +4 against psionic powers and creatures with PR have their PR+4 against spells.

    This also applies to the interaction of Powers and spells, for example trying to dispel a psionic effect with dispel magic would have a +4 to the level check and viceversa.

    That is what my DM used.
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    Default Re: That's ONLY CR 9??? Let's Read: The Monster Manual II

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonus View Post
    I thought the cloud ray was some type of airborne laser.
    You're thinking of the Chaos Roc.

    ...

    Oh, now I get the joke.
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  15. - Top - End - #315
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    Default Re: That's ONLY CR 9??? Let's Read: The Monster Manual II

    Crimson Death

    Another Undead monstrosity! Crimson Deaths are disembodied souls who suck blood from victims (quite a feet, for incorporeal creatures ). They live in swamps, moors, and other areas where fog is a constant presence. While incorporeal, the Crimson Deaths have the ability to manifest as humanoids by manipulating the fog around them. Its only physical features are its eyes.

    Crimson Horrors use telekinesis to simulate touch, which I guess explains their ability to grab and suck blood.

    Challenge Rating? Currently, they are listed as CR 11. Makes sense, I guess. They get a couple of bonus feats, a bunch of telekinesis-based powers, and 13 HD. Turns out the CR is more akin to 10. That's alright, though; Being undead, they don't have as many hit points as CR 11 monsters of other types.

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    84 divided by 5.5 (13 HD): 15.2727 (about 15)
    Armor Class: 17 (+1)
    Special Attacks: Blood drain, seize (+2)
    Special Qualities: Incorporeal Traits, Undead traits, lift (+11)
    Bonus Feats: Lightning Reflexes. Spring Attack, Improved Initiative (+1)
    30 divided by 3: 10


    Darktentacles

    Darktentacles (apparently renamed Dark Clutchers in later supplements) are creatures that superficially seem to be taken straight out of Lord of the Rings. Anyone remember the Watcher in the Waters? The elder evil from the dark times before the First Age? This is the same creature, along with the same spell-like abilities.

    Another swamp monster, darktentacles are highly intelligent ambush predators. Often, they'll leave treasure by the edges of the lake in which they reside in order to attract new prey. Darktentacles have 36 tentacles, but may only use 12 for combat at any one time (the others are used for maneuvering and locomotion. Each tentacles have a large amount of eyes. I wonder why they don't have all around vision?

    Like the (definitely not CR 57) hecatoncheires, Darktentacles have a racial bonus to multi-weapon fighting to counterbalance the extreme penalties they would otherwise take for using such a large amount of weapons (they can use manufactured weapons, did I mention that? ). Luckily for adventurers, it can not focus all of its attacks on a single target. The melee guy will not be crippled from 12 different attacks in one round (though if hes medium, he is still subject to 3 attacks from Huge weapons per round, despite their Large size).

    Challenge Rating: I think that, for the first time since the beginning of this thread, the number of attacks should play a role in determining the monster's CR. In the average four man party, each PC is attacked three times per round, and that's assuming this is the only creature! That's a +4 bonus to CR modifier (otherwise known as +1.33 to CR) at least, right? This ups the CR to 9, which is equal to the monster's HD. Normally, I would call BS here, but I kind of agree with it in this case. This creature has quadruple the natural attacks of the standard bite-two-claws monster, and it can hold its own against the four man party.

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    67 divided by 5 (9 HD): 13.4 (about 13)
    Armor Class: 18 (+1)
    Special Attacks: Constrict, Improved Grab, Spell like Abilities (+4)
    Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., enhanced multiweapon fighting, tentacle regeneration, tremorsense, Huge weapon use (+5)
    Bonus Feats: None (+0)
    (23 + 4) divided by 3: 9
    Last edited by LOTRfan; 2011-06-28 at 07:12 PM.
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    Goblin

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    Default Re: That's ONLY CR 9??? Let's Read: The Monster Manual II

    I used a Crimson Death in the campaign I am running currently against a party of 5 (levels around 10) after dealing an almost lethal amount to one character it was quickly killed (although they were rolling well). It was a pretty fun encounter overall though if I remember correctly.

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    Default Re: That's ONLY CR 9??? Let's Read: The Monster Manual II

    ...Now I want to use a Darktentacles. I don't remember reading about it in my MMII. XD

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    Default Re: That's ONLY CR 9??? Let's Read: The Monster Manual II

    Can't the Crimson Death cause ability drain? That should be worth something.
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    Default Re: That's ONLY CR 9??? Let's Read: The Monster Manual II

    Actually, could we work out the CR for the hecatoncheires?

    My bare-bones attempt:
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    1048 divided by 9.5 (52 HD): 110.3 (This is a bit... off. I extrapolated a bit.)
    Armor Class: 70 (+12) (Again, off, a touch attack makes its AC 28)
    Special Attacks: Superior multiweapon fighting, spell-like abilities, summon hecatoncheires (+2, because it has terrible spells. I don't know how to include the Summon ability, but it states that it doesn't like to use it, so I'm ignoring it.)
    Special Qualities: Abomination traits, electricity immunity, regeneration 40, fast healing 50, SR 70, DR 20/good and epic and cold iron (Okay, I have no idea where to start here. The DR gets a +2, and the SR and Regen and Fast Healing are crazy. Also, it has 100 attacks a round. It's nuts.)
    Abomination Traits
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    Immune to polymorphing, petrification, and other form-altering attacks; not subject to energy drain, ability drain, ability damage, or death from massive damage; immune to mind-affecting effects; fire resistance 20; cold resistance 20; nondetection; true seeing at will; blindsight 500 ft.; telepathy out to 1,000 ft.

    Bonus Feats: None, but it gets some Epic feats, so... (+0)
    (???) divided by 3: ???

    The Rules:
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    #1. Divide creature's average HP by 4.5 to 6.5.
    4.5 for 5 HD or lower, 5 for 6-10 HD, 5.5 for 11-15 HD, 6 for 16-20 HD., 6.5 for 20-25 HD.

    #2. Add 1 for each five points above 10 its AC is, subtracting 1 for every 5 below.

    #3. Add 1 for each special attack (+2 to +5 or more if its got a decent number of spells in its spell-like abilities).

    #4. Add 1 for each quality unless you deem it worthy of more. Add 1 for each resistance and 10 points of DR it has, and 2 for each immunity. Subtract 1 for each vulnerability.

    #5. Add 1 for every two bonus feats it has.

    #6. Divide total by 3. This should be its rough CR


    Any help on this thing?
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    Default Re: That's ONLY CR 9??? Let's Read: The Monster Manual II

    Regarding the Crimson Death: it actually has 3, not 2, feats. 13 HD = 5 feats, the monster has 8. According to the update doc, it's bonus feats are: Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Spring Attack. Does that change it's CR in any way?

  21. - Top - End - #321
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    Default Re: That's ONLY CR 9??? Let's Read: The Monster Manual II

    Quote Originally Posted by Darklord Xavez View Post
    Can't the Crimson Death cause ability drain? That should be worth something.
    -X
    That would be Blood drain, which deals 1d4 constitution damage. Its already included.

    Quote Originally Posted by RaggedAngel View Post
    Actually, could we work out the CR for the hecatoncheires?

    My bare-bones attempt:
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    1048 divided by 9.5 (52 HD): 110.3 (This is a bit... off. I extrapolated a bit.)
    Armor Class: 70 (+12) (Again, off, a touch attack makes its AC 28)
    Special Attacks: Superior multiweapon fighting, spell-like abilities, summon hecatoncheires (+2, because it has terrible spells. I don't know how to include the Summon ability, but it states that it doesn't like to use it, so I'm ignoring it.)
    Special Qualities: Abomination traits, electricity immunity, regeneration 40, fast healing 50, SR 70, DR 20/good and epic and cold iron (Okay, I have no idea where to start here. The DR gets a +2, and the SR and Regen and Fast Healing are crazy. Also, it has 100 attacks a round. It's nuts.)
    Abomination Traits
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    Immune to polymorphing, petrification, and other form-altering attacks; not subject to energy drain, ability drain, ability damage, or death from massive damage; immune to mind-affecting effects; fire resistance 20; cold resistance 20; nondetection; true seeing at will; blindsight 500 ft.; telepathy out to 1,000 ft.

    Bonus Feats: None, but it gets some Epic feats, so... (+0)
    (???) divided by 3: ???

    The Rules:
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    #1. Divide creature's average HP by 4.5 to 6.5.
    4.5 for 5 HD or lower, 5 for 6-10 HD, 5.5 for 11-15 HD, 6 for 16-20 HD., 6.5 for 20-25 HD.

    #2. Add 1 for each five points above 10 its AC is, subtracting 1 for every 5 below.

    #3. Add 1 for each special attack (+2 to +5 or more if its got a decent number of spells in its spell-like abilities).

    #4. Add 1 for each quality unless you deem it worthy of more. Add 1 for each resistance and 10 points of DR it has, and 2 for each immunity. Subtract 1 for each vulnerability.

    #5. Add 1 for every two bonus feats it has.

    #6. Divide total by 3. This should be its rough CR


    Any help on this thing?
    I think we may have just found our second bonus monster.

    Quote Originally Posted by MosAnted View Post
    Regarding the Crimson Death: it actually has 3, not 2, feats. 13 HD = 5 feats, the monster has 8. According to the update doc, it's bonus feats are: Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Spring Attack. Does that change it's CR in any way?
    Every two bonus feats results in a +1 modifier when determining CR, so it will not change the end result. I'll add it for completeness, though. Thanks for the catch!
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  22. - Top - End - #322
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    Default Re: That's ONLY CR 9??? Let's Read: The Monster Manual II

    Monster Manual II is a GODSEND for Masters of Many Forms. Leechwalker, New Dinosaurs, Hook Horror, Low HD Giants, Strong Monstorous Humanoids, and of course...Darktentacles.
    Sup ho.

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    Default Re: That's ONLY CR 9??? Let's Read: The Monster Manual II

    Quote Originally Posted by NineThePuma View Post
    Fluffwise, the adamantine horror is unique.
    A Mirror Mephit can solve this problem.

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    Default Re: That's ONLY CR 9??? Let's Read: The Monster Manual II

    Quote Originally Posted by Darklord Xavez View Post
    You're thinking of the Chaos Roc.

    ...

    Oh, now I get the joke.
    -X
    Actually, I honestly thought it was some kind of cloud that shot lasers.
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  25. - Top - End - #325
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    Default Re: That's ONLY CR 9??? Let's Read: The Monster Manual II

    Okay, I shall be going on a trip tomorrow out of state. While I will have internet access, I shall not have my books until August 3rd, so there shall be no updates between tomorrow and then. I will attempt to have one more update later today, however.

    On the bright side, though, the entry scheduled for the third is the demon entry; there shall be more then enough monsters in that single update to make up for roughly three weeks with no updates.
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    Default Re: That's ONLY CR 9??? Let's Read: The Monster Manual II

    Looking forward to it! Don't forget that their CR accounts for them summoning other demons, possibly of their own kind.
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    Default Re: That's ONLY CR 9??? Let's Read: The Monster Manual II

    WOO! New updates soon!

    Here's something I though about recently: how does the natural environment of the monster affect its CR? Could it be possible that creatures got higher CRs because they are native to more challenging environments, and some were ranked lower due to its terrain allowing a crushing charge?
    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    But as we've agreed, sometimes the real power was the friends we made along the way, including the DM. I wish I could go on more articulate rants about how I'm grateful for DMs putting in the effort on a hard job even when it isn't perfect.

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    Default Re: That's ONLY CR 9??? Let's Read: The Monster Manual II

    So is this project now officially dead?
    That would be quite a shame, it was quite fun to read...
    Thanks to Dirtytabs for the awesome ponytar =D

    And take a look at my first homebrew-class, the Craftknight - a (ToB-less) master of all weapons! Creative input greatly appreciated

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    Default Re: That's ONLY CR 9??? Let's Read: The Monster Manual II

    Quote Originally Posted by Fruchtkracher View Post
    So is this project now officially dead?
    That would be quite a shame, it was quite fun to read...
    Well, LOTRfan was away from his books until last week. I'd say wait until Monday before calling it completely dead.
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    Default Re: That's ONLY CR 9??? Let's Read: The Monster Manual II

    I had spoken to them just recently and they said they would resume the project soon, but Aug 3 past a while ago...

    Then again, someone else could adopt the mantle of dumb CR hosting to tide the thread until the Return of the King.

    Maybe I'll put up a guest monster of the roper. They certainly are strong enough to warrant their CR, but they are so stupid looking and bizarrely cheap that they don't deserve such might...
    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    But as we've agreed, sometimes the real power was the friends we made along the way, including the DM. I wish I could go on more articulate rants about how I'm grateful for DMs putting in the effort on a hard job even when it isn't perfect.

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