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  1. - Top - End - #181
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    Default Re: That's ONLY CR 9??? Let's Read: The Monster Manual II

    Uh, oh. One of those CR>HD cases? At least a 5:4 ratio is better than a 1:2 ratio, but still...
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  2. - Top - End - #182
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    Default Re: That's ONLY CR 9??? Let's Read: The Monster Manual II

    NEW! In MM2! Bogus bastard satyr and bogus bastard werewolf! Confuse your players into ambushing celestial good creatures TODAY!!

  3. - Top - End - #183
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    Default Re: That's ONLY CR 9??? Let's Read: The Monster Manual II

    Not to nitpick, but the Lupinal's DR is listed on the 3.5 update doc as 5/evil

  4. - Top - End - #184
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    Default Re: That's ONLY CR 9??? Let's Read: The Monster Manual II

    I'll make the correction now. Thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    NEW! In MM2! Bogus bastard satyr and bogus bastard werewolf! Confuse your players into ambushing celestial good creatures TODAY!!
    Come on now, that's a little harsh, don't you think?
    Last edited by LOTRfan; 2011-05-03 at 07:38 PM.
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  5. - Top - End - #185
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    smile Re: That's ONLY CR 9??? Let's Read: The Monster Manual II

    Did we miss an update in here? I NEED AN UPDATE! THIS WAS THE ONLY THING KEEPING ME FROM SPEWING NOOB ALL OVER OTHER THREADS!!
    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    But as we've agreed, sometimes the real power was the friends we made along the way, including the DM. I wish I could go on more articulate rants about how I'm grateful for DMs putting in the effort on a hard job even when it isn't perfect.

  6. - Top - End - #186
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    Default Re: That's ONLY CR 9??? Let's Read: The Monster Manual II

    Yes, it seems that I have misplaced my book. As soon as I find it, I shall update (but because of family issues, I won't have a lot of time to look for it this week ). My apologies for the inconvenience...

    EDIT: To make up for it, though, next update will have three critters.
    Last edited by LOTRfan; 2011-05-10 at 09:56 PM.
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  7. - Top - End - #187
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    Default Re: That's ONLY CR 9??? Let's Read: The Monster Manual II

    Quote Originally Posted by LOTRfan View Post
    Yes, it seems that I have misplaced my book. As soon as I find it, I shall update (but because of family issues, I won't have a lot of time to look for it this week ). My apologies for the inconvenience...

    EDIT: To make up for it, though, next update will have three critters.
    Hurray! I may have only lurked on this thread up until right now, but it's been a very entertaining read for me. I hope your family issues resolve quickly and easily.
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  8. - Top - End - #188
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    Default Re: That's ONLY CR 9??? Let's Read: The Monster Manual II

    Quote Originally Posted by RaggedAngel View Post
    Hurray! I may have only lurked on this thread up until right now, but it's been a very entertaining read for me. I hope your family issues resolve quickly and easily.
    They won't, but thank you.
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  9. - Top - End - #189
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    Default Re: That's ONLY CR 9??? Let's Read: The Monster Manual II

    It's Monday, Monday, Garfield hates Mondays! No one is looking forward to the week days!
    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    But as we've agreed, sometimes the real power was the friends we made along the way, including the DM. I wish I could go on more articulate rants about how I'm grateful for DMs putting in the effort on a hard job even when it isn't perfect.

  10. - Top - End - #190
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    Default Re: That's ONLY CR 9??? Let's Read: The Monster Manual II

    Wow, at this point its been nearly three weeks since last update. I'd like to apologize for the lateness. Things have been kind of rough family-wise, and when I have been on, I've been focusing on homebrew and the silly game board (both of which I tend to do often when I am depressed). To anyone still reading this, I'm going to make a much greater effort to stay on schedule. Anyway, three weeks worth of absences brings you three entries worth of critters.

    I'd also like to thank Milo v3, who e-mailed me the CHain Golem stats when I couldn't find my book, and No brains.

    Chain Golem

    Ah, golems. Some of my favorite creatures. This specific Golem, the Chain Golem, is a servant of infernal devils. Serving a special role as the psychopathic hell machines, these nasty beasts are forever the servants of Kytons.

    The bodies of Chain Golems are composed of ever-shifting chains, some small and weak, others large and razor sharp. As they move, the rusting chains are constantly rubbing against each other, making a terrible shrieking sound. Like any good slave to the corporate Infernal machine, Chain Golems follow their orders to the letter, and sacrifice themselves if necessary. The second this critter's master dies, ownership of him is transferred to the nearest available Kyton immediately. Yes, the devils are that efficient at paperwork.

    My two concerns: 1) Why does this creature not have the Extraplanar subtype? It is forged in hellfire and constructed from the living chains of kytons, and yet it doesn't get the extraplanar subtype? Seems... odd. 2) Why does this golem get its own entry? There are three other golems in this book, all under the "Golem" section. What makes these guys so special that they get their own entry?

    Challenge Rating: They are currently listed as CR 5. Unless this thing is underpowered, I expect to have to bump up the CR by at least one, since it needs to have the bonus hit points that it gains when it enters 3.5e into their stats. Apparently, upon doing the math, the creature is actually a CR 7, which is equal to the amount of HD it has. Advance it up an HD or three before tossing it at your players, alright?

    Construction: Want to make a Chain Golem? Foolish mortal! Only the Kytons know how to make them. COnsidering they are the prime torturers in Hell, I wouldn't mess with them. The book specifically says that if anyone discovers the secret of their creation, the Kytons will continually plot the assassination of that person. Actually... that sounds like a cool plot hook...

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    58 divided by 5 (7 HD): 11.6 (about 12)
    Armor Class: 21 (+2)
    Special Attacks: Chain barrier, wounding (+2)
    Special Qualities: Construct traits, magic immunity, resistance to ranged attacks (+6)
    Bonus Feats: None
    22 divided by 3: 7.3 (about 7)
    End Result: CR 7 monster


    Chaos Roc

    Alright, this monster is sort of... dopey. This monster suffers from what TVtropes refers to as "Underground Monkey Syndrome." Have you ran out of ideas for new monsters? Take an existing monster, advance in it HD or give it a new ability or two, and ta da! You have a "cool" new variant of an existing creature. Don't get me wrong, I kind of enjoy doing this (I myself am guilty of doing this many times over), but seriously WotC? Why publish this, when we can have an interesting new monster? At least the original MM had the decency to publish variant monsters in the same entry as the original creature. Plus, they get cool fluff, too.

    Abyssal Basilisks? They are demon spawned lizards used by demon lords as elite guard monsters. Nessian Hell Hounds? The personal tracking unit of Asmodeus himself. Chaos Rocs? They have pretty much the exact same fluff as regular rocs, minus the carrying away elephants to eat.

    I guess if you want a tougher, chaotic aligned roc, these are your best choice. They can emit a nasty prismatic spray from their eyes, which is always fun. Except its at will, of course. So, you have a Godzilla antagonist that shoots multicolored lasers from their eyes that can kill, disintegrate, or even transport you to another dimension. Actually, that sounds a little cooler now....

    Besides that, though? The exact same thing as a regular roc advanced to 33 HD and with swallow whole.

    Challenge Rating: They are currently listed as CR 22. That seems a little... high, especially since regular rocs are CR 9 and have 18 HD. Apparently, though, it is in fact CR 22. Let's compare it to the other Prismatic epic monster, the Prismasaurus, shall we? Prismasaurus is listed as CR 28. It has a little less than double the Chaos Roc's HD, it has a much better armor class, and has a 50% miss chance. Easily CR 28. The one thing that the Chaos Roc has the advantage of is that it can fly, while the Prismasaurus is a sitting duck. Perhaps that does aid the Chaos Roc some, as now the "fly out of reach and pound with fire ball" strategy is no longer effective.

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    478 divided by 8 (33 HD): 59.75 (about 60)
    Armor Class: 25 (+3)
    Special Attacks: Prismatic Spray, Swallow Whole (+2)
    Special Qualities: Damage Reduction 15/Epic, Spell Resistance 33 (+2)
    Bonus Feats: Snatch. This monster is actually missing eleven of the twelve feats it should have. Ability Focus (prismatic spray), Alertness, Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Flyby Attack, Hover, Iron Will, Mobility, Power Attack, Snatch, Wingover (Special thanks to MosAnted)
    67 divided by 3: 22.333 (about 22)
    End Result: CR 22 monster


    Cloaked Ape

    Okay, biology lesson time; who can tell me what is wrong with the picture above? I'll give you a hint; APES DON'T HAVE TAILS! It is a fact that while monkey species may or may not have tails, all apes lack tails (with the exception of the vestigial tail bone, but those don't count)! Get this right, people! I know Cloaked Monkey sounds sort of silly, but don't call them apes! Cloaked Primates would have been a better name. Argh!

    So, remember how I mentioned that there are three ape variants in the monster Manual II. Here's the second "ape" variant. Called the Cloaked Ape, these creatures are flying monkeys primates that inhabit The Wonderful World of Oz subtropical rain forests. Like many primates, these creatures live off of a supply of fruits and the occasional small animal. They get their names for their "wings," flaps of skin that attach their arms and legs to form a gliding system. Like most apes, they are diurnal. This is weird, because unlike other apes, who have given up their night vision in order to see in color, these creatures have darkvision.

    On their supernatural side, these creatures heal very fast, and are actually resistant to all non-silvered weapons. Overall an interesting enemy.

    Challenge Rating? Currently, they are listed as Challenge Rating 2. This seems alright, I guess. Most players can have access to silvered weapons, and Mephits (who are CR 3) also have fast healing in addition to better attack options. It turns out that they are on the low side of CR 3, though. I guess it makes sense.

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    26 divided by 4.5 (4 HD): 5.777 (about 6)
    Armor Class: 16 (+1)
    Special Attacks: Improved Grab (+1)
    Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, Damage Reduction 5/Silver, Fast Healing 3, Scent (+2)
    Bonus Feats: None. They are missing two feats. Alertness, Flyby Attack (again, special thanks to MosAnted)
    10 divided by 3: 3.333 (about 3)
    End Result: CR 3 monster
    Last edited by LOTRfan; 2011-05-23 at 06:44 PM.
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  11. - Top - End - #191
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    Default Re: That's ONLY CR 9??? Let's Read: The Monster Manual II

    Yay, you're back!

    If it makes you feel better, you could put white-out over the tail on that cloaked ape picture in your book It looks kinda tacked on, anyway. (And what's with it being a raccoon tail? Doesn't look like any primate tail I know of...)
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  12. - Top - End - #192
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    Default Re: That's ONLY CR 9??? Let's Read: The Monster Manual II

    That's a pretty good question. I have no idea why it is a raccoon tail. I've never noticed that, before.
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  13. - Top - End - #193
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    Default Re: That's ONLY CR 9??? Let's Read: The Monster Manual II

    Chain Golem: Remember the Extraplanar subtype didn't exist back in 3.0. You can (and should IMO) add it to the golem, after all, it won't change it's stats in a signifficant way (aside from making it vulnerable to dismissal).

    Chaos Roc: The 3.5 update doc lists its missing feats: Ability Focus (prismatic spray), Alertness, Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Flyby Attack, Hover, Iron Will, Mobility, Power Attack, Snatch, Wingover

    Cloaked "Primate" : Again from the 3.5 update doc, the missing feats: Alertness, Flyby Attack

    Quote Originally Posted by Savannah View Post
    (And what's with it being a raccoon tail? Doesn't look like any primate tail I know of...)
    If I'm not mistaken, Lemurs have tails like that.
    Last edited by MosAnted; 2011-05-23 at 06:44 PM.

  14. - Top - End - #194
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    Default Re: That's ONLY CR 9??? Let's Read: The Monster Manual II

    Dismissal allows spell resistance, so it wouldn't be affected by it, anyway.

    I'll add those feats in.

    EDIT: I was right about the Chaos Roc feats!
    Last edited by LOTRfan; 2011-05-23 at 06:43 PM.
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    Default Re: That's ONLY CR 9??? Let's Read: The Monster Manual II

    Why not call it a cloaked lemur? That's a primate that has a raccoon tail, and that makes the monster even more exotic because some people will say wtf is a lemur?
    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    But as we've agreed, sometimes the real power was the friends we made along the way, including the DM. I wish I could go on more articulate rants about how I'm grateful for DMs putting in the effort on a hard job even when it isn't perfect.

  16. - Top - End - #196
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    Default Re: That's ONLY CR 9??? Let's Read: The Monster Manual II

    That's right! I forgot, Lemurs have that kind of tail. Although I don't think I've ever met someone who didn't know who a lemur was.
    Last edited by LOTRfan; 2011-05-23 at 10:16 PM.
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    Default Re: That's ONLY CR 9??? Let's Read: The Monster Manual II

    It even looks more like a lemur than any ape. (And I do know some people who would have no idea what a lemur is, although none of them would be the sort to play D&D.)
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  18. - Top - End - #198
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    Default Re: That's ONLY CR 9??? Let's Read: The Monster Manual II

    It looks like a demonic sugar glider. =/.

  19. - Top - End - #199
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    Default Re: That's ONLY CR 9??? Let's Read: The Monster Manual II

    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    Why not call it a cloaked lemur? That's a primate that has a raccoon tail, and that makes the monster even more exotic because some people will say wtf is a lemur?
    Yeah, they might have been worried the artist would draw a lemure instead of a lemur if they called it "cloaked lemur." This is WotC, after all!
    Last edited by CTrees; 2011-05-24 at 06:38 AM.

  20. - Top - End - #200
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    Default Re: That's ONLY CR 9??? Let's Read: The Monster Manual II

    Quote Originally Posted by LOTRfan View Post
    That's right! I forgot, Lemurs have that kind of tail. Although I don't think I've ever met someone who didn't know who a lemur was.

    I remember the first time we took my grandfather to the zoo (he grew up in rural maine so had never gone before) and when he saw the Lemurs, he said

    "What the hell kind of raccoon is THAT!"

    So very funny.

  21. - Top - End - #201
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    Default Re: That's ONLY CR 9??? Let's Read: The Monster Manual II

    I think I should mention this: next group of creatures are the Clockwork horrors.
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  22. - Top - End - #202
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    Default Re: That's ONLY CR 9??? Let's Read: The Monster Manual II

    Quote Originally Posted by LOTRfan View Post
    I think I should mention this: next group of creatures are the Clockwork horrors.
    Yay! I can't wait to see where you put them :P
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    Default Re: That's ONLY CR 9??? Let's Read: The Monster Manual II

    Quote Originally Posted by LOTRfan View Post
    I think I should mention this: next group of creatures are the Clockwork horrors.
    Oh dear...

  24. - Top - End - #204
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    Default Re: That's ONLY CR 9??? Let's Read: The Monster Manual II

    I wonder what you will put the adamantine horror at with its Disjunction at will heheheh
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    DM means: NO! NO! NO!!!
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  25. - Top - End - #205
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    Default Re: That's ONLY CR 9??? Let's Read: The Monster Manual II

    On CR vs HD, is that a hard rule, a guideline, or the only way the system can work?

    Cause look at this homebrew undead: a CR7 with 3HD. That's right, a 1st level cleric can beat it with a good enough turn check.

  26. - Top - End - #206
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    Default Re: That's ONLY CR 9??? Let's Read: The Monster Manual II

    It's a guideline, mostly. If the creature has too many abilities, and not enough HD, it tends to die before it can be used at their full potential (which makes high CRs misleading).

    That monster.... I have to say I'm a little disappointed with the states. Don't get me wrong, Thunt's webcomic is really enjoyable, but the stats don't really follow standard 3.5e rules.
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    Default Re: That's ONLY CR 9??? Let's Read: The Monster Manual II

    Quote Originally Posted by jguy View Post
    I wonder what you will put the adamantine horror at with its Disjunction at will heheheh
    And Implosion, and Disintergrate (Both at will) if I remember correctly.
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    Default Re: That's ONLY CR 9??? Let's Read: The Monster Manual II

    ... That's at least a +6 modifier in the CR calculator, don'tcha think?
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    Default Re: That's ONLY CR 9??? Let's Read: The Monster Manual II

    Quote Originally Posted by Forbiddenwar View Post
    Cause look at this homebrew undead: a CR7 with 3HD. That's right, a 1st level cleric can beat it with a good enough turn check.
    Do remember that there's plenty of poorly-designed monsters in the actual monster manuals (that's kinda the point of this thread!), and I'm sure there's even more poorly-designed homebrew monsters, so I wouldn't just blindly accept the CR of any monster.
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  30. - Top - End - #210
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    Default Re: That's ONLY CR 9??? Let's Read: The Monster Manual II

    Well thunt did post a justification in his forum that seemed to satisfy most people. However it was built to exist in a horror game. A creature that could easily TPK if it got the jump on the party but is pretty easily killed if the party survives the first round or two. Thats not really what 3.5 is built to do so its no wonder it doesn't stake up.

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