Martial Monk is teh br0kenzorz?

[true_shinken]

I was reading through Dragon 310, seeing if the variant Monks were different from Unearthed Arcana. They are not, but there are extra variants there. One of those variants is the Martial Monk. He gets any Fighter feat at 1st, 2nd and 6th level as his monk bonus feats. And he loses skill points. Now, that doesn't sound broken at all. But remember this:

A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them.

So... you can get Weapon Supremacy at level 1, Elusive Target at level 2 and Shock Trooper at level 6. Ouch. Just... ouch.

[Kurald Galain]

I don't think so. The words "these feats" refer to the six explicitly named feats in the same paragraph, not to whatever other feats the monk might pick up.

[Baidas Kebante]

I'm also not sure that these feats are enough to make a monk broken, given the class' other many problems.

[true_shinken]

I don't think so. The words "these feats" refer to the six explicitly named feats in the same paragraph, not to whatever other feats the monk might pick up.

I should have included the wording of Martial Monk as well.

Gain: Fighter bonus feat list to choose monk bonus feats (at 1st, 2nd and 6th levels)

Meaning the text would end up being something like this:

At 1st level, 2nd and 6th level a monk may select either a bonus feat from the Fighter bonus feat list. A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them.

It sure as hell ain't intended, but I think it's hard to argue RAW. Seems like an editing mistake.

[Psyren]

Seems like an editing mistake.

In Dragon Magazine? Ridiculous.

[Akal Saris]

Hrm...It's kind of like the 'Can a rogue take Epic Toughness at 10th' question. In practice, allowing any fighter feat probably would open up a lot more options for martial PCs without making them all that broken.

[Kurald Galain]

Meaning the text would end up being something like this:

Or, you know, "At 1st level, a monk may select either Improved Grapple or Stunning Fist as a bonus feat. At 2nd level, she may select either Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows as a bonus feat. At 6th level, she may select either Improved Disarm or Improved Trip as a bonus feat. A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them." You may also use the "Fighter bonus feat list to choose monk bonus feats (at 1st, 2nd and 6th levels)."

Wanna bet which interpretation your DM is going by?

[Tengu_temp]

A fighter can take Shock Trooper at level 6 too. Are fighters broken?

[AshDesert]

It seems like RAW would allow it, and it's not like 3 feats are going to break the Monk. A power-boost like that would be welcome, actually.

[FMArthur]

If Weapon Supremacy ends up being the biggest toy granted by this exploit, I'll be content to let it stand.

[Psyren]

The Pathfinder Fighter feats would be nice, if the "without needing prerequisites" line can extend to not needing Fighter levels. Stuff like, say, Greater Penetrating Strike

Weapon Supremacy is a bit lost on a monk, isn't it? They already can't be disarmed (save literally), and they can already punch in grapples just fine.

[Bayar]

I was reading through Dragon 310, seeing if the variant Monks were different from Unearthed Arcana. They are not, but there are extra variants there. One of those variants is the Martial Monk. He gets any Fighter feat at 1st, 2nd and 6th level as his monk bonus feats. And he loses skill points. Now, that doesn't sound broken at all. But remember this:

So... you can get Weapon Supremacy at level 1, Elusive Target at level 2 and Shock Trooper at level 6. Ouch. Just... ouch.

Doesn't fix the monk really. I mean, it would make it a good dip for chargers that want to get leap attack at level 1 and shock trooper at level 2, but it won't make people wanna play monks at higher levels. Just a different 2 level dip monk.

[Akal Saris]

A fighter can take Shock Trooper at level 6 too. Are fighters broken?

Shock trooper is probably as close as a fighter is going to get to being broken.

[Tael]

Epic feats are pretty nifty.

[Hawk7915]

If anything, I think this change would help push Monk up to maaaaybe Tier 4 so they aren't worthless. The "Thou Shalt Not Take More Than 6 levels of Monk" rule would still apply in most cases, but I feel like pre-req free Bludgeoning Weapon Mastery, Elusive Target, and <insert Awesome feat here, but probably Shock Trooper, Robilar's Gambit, or Knockback) would go a long way towards making me more excited to take levels in Monk. But you'd still see a lot of people dipping 1-2 levels in Monk for the aforementioned feats and then running off to some other class, or taking 6 levels and then PrCing out and making up the damage with a Belt, Superior Unarmed Strike, and Fist of the Forest levels.

[SurlySeraph]

A level or two in Decisive Strike Monk is already pretty good for AoO builds, and getting Robilar's Gambit 11 levels early would certainly be nice.

[T.G. Oskar]

In any case, Martial Monk allowing a character to gain Fighter bonus feats without prerequisites means you effectively get 6 levels out of Monk. Which isn't pretty half bad at all; afterwards, you get more Tashalatora, probably get into Tattooed Monk for the next 9 levels, then 5 more levels of whatever you like.

But...it's not like it's far too exploitable. At best, it means you can get TWF at 1st level, ITWF at 2nd and GTWF at 6th, then forget about Monk (maybe the evasion and the ability to fight without armor or something) and get to the class you really like. Or using the first two levels to get Combat Reflexes and Robilar's Gambit, Tash it all the way after, Decisive Strike and Stand Still, probably lots of Expansion, and you get a much faster (and unarmed) King of Smack build.

But really; it's not THAT exploitable. Invisible Fist is far more exploitable, and it could allow a 9-level Monk build (probably the farthest you might wanna get it for free uses of Blink pretty much at will).

[Thespianus]

Technically, since you can waive all prerequisites for the Feats, you can get GTWF without even taking TWF and ITWF. Not sure it does you much good, but there might be other "end of the chain" feats that you can grab at level one like this.

It could , for example, make Improved Whirlwind Attack (Dragon 343) a decent pick. Also, Intuitive Attack (use Wis instead of Str for attacks) seems like a good pick for a monk.

Pierce Magical Concealment also makes for a GREAT pick, disregarding miss chances from Blur, Invisibility, Darkness, etc, AND you always know which Mirror Image is the right one to attack.

[T.G. Oskar]

Technically, since you can waive all prerequisites for the Feats, you can get GTWF without even taking TWF and ITWF. Not sure it does you much good, but there might be other "end of the chain" feats that you can grab at level one like this.

Actually, it's strictly worse: you get a third attack at a -10 penalty, but you never get the reduction on attacks (so you retain the -8/-4 penalties), and your third attack is at a -14. You need all three to get all attacks. Now, what you might be able to do is get Two-Weapon Fighting (for the attack reduction), then Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting (which nets you one attack per iterative attack you get); if your BAB is 16, then you have the chance to get 8 attacks total. With flurry you get 9, with flurry and haste you get 10, with all of that and Snap Kick you get about 11 attacks (we're ignoring whether TWF and flurry stack because you're already going with a pretty non-RAI ruling).

Another might be to get Combat Brute and Battle Jump to mingle with Power Attack and Leap Attack, and maybe even Shock Trooper so that you can deliver somewhere around 4 times the damage on a Power Attack, plus 4 times your fist damage.

Again; this is not very surprising because you're basically getting odd feats very early on, but later on unless you get levels in different classes you're pretty much the same. Probably ignoring Imp. Sunder and other pre-reqs for a charger build...perhaps add Dire Charge to it so that it becomes a 1st-turn mega-pounce attack? The only unbalancing thing might be the ability to access Epic, but let's face it; some "Epic" spells aren't so epic at all (I mean, Two-Weapon Rend was degraded to regular feat, and even then it's not that useful.