catfolk [3.5]

[Moose Man]

do they really deserve the LA that they have/ if not, what steps could one take to improve them?

[Glyde]

Well, I wouldn't say they deserve to *not* have one. I can't think of any races that are LA 0 with stat increases like that without penalty somewhere else.

[Waker]

They do deserve the level adjustment since they have unbalancing stats, increased land speed and natural armor. But the LA isn't too bad to deal with, especially if you allow the LA buyoff.

[FMArthur]

They're not too bad, but I'd give them +6 Dexterity if I actually wanted them to have a significant niche as a LA+1 race, because as-is they don't have anything special besides moderately high stats. If I wanted them to be LA+0 I'd take away the Charisma boost and give them Light Sensitivity. +4 Dexterity on a chassis of basically nothing isn't too unbalanced - if a race doesn't have any notable extra features I don't see any problem whatsoever with a net gain of ability score adjustments within reason, particularly to weak stats like Dexterity.

[Scarlet-Devil]

Consider some other +1 LA races/templates: Tieflings get +2 to two stats, and -2 to another, along with darkvision, some energy resistances, skill bonuses, and darkness once per day; Hobgoblins get +2 to two stats and some skill bonuses; the draconic template gives +2 to three stats, +1 natural armor, skill bonuses, darkvision/low-light, and some other bonuses...

Catfolk get +4 to one stat and +2 to another, +1 natural armor, 40 ft. base land speed (higher than average for a medium creature; few LA 0 races get this), low-light vision, and some skill bonuses.

Catfolk get better bonuses than hobgoblins, arguably better bonuses than tieflings, and are right around the same level as the Draconic template (which is a very good, but not cheesy +1 LA template). I'd say they're right where they need to be as far as LA.

To make them +0, I'd change their ability scores to +2 Dex, -2 Int (to represent a hunter-gatherer society that doesn't necessarily place a lot of importance on intellectual pursuits), and leave the rest the same.

[Amnestic]

Consider some other +1 LA races/templates: Tieflings get +2 to two stats, and -2 to another, along with darkvision, some energy resistances, skill bonuses, and darkness once per day

You missed perhaps the most "attractive" part of the Tiefling: The Outsider type. The fact that they lose this and only this when they become Lesser Tieflings (along with Lesser Aasimar) implies that the rest of that stuff is pretty superfluous; Lesser Aasimar don't even have the -2 to a stat but they're still LA 0.

[Scarlet-Devil]

You missed perhaps the most "attractive" part of the Tiefling: The Outsider type. The fact that they lose this and only this when they become Lesser Tieflings (along with Lesser Aasimar) implies that the rest of that stuff is pretty superfluous; Lesser Aasimar don't even have the -2 to a stat but they're still LA 0.

The flaw of Lesser Aasimar/Tieflings isn't so much that they "lose" the outsider type, it's that they become humanoid(planetouched) which makes them susceptible to things that effect both humanoids and outsiders; that can be a major disadvantage (or none at all, depending on the DM). I don't think the designers really thought too much about the potential power/cheese involved with alter self/polymorph any object etc based on race.

[HunterOfJello]

The only things I see that put a Catfolk slightly above an average LA 0 is the 40ft movement speed and the +4 to Dexterity while having no penalty to any stats.


If you wanted to reduce the Catfolk to LA 0 I would reccomend reducing the speed to 30ft, give them a penalty to str or wis at -2 and decrease the Dex bonus to +2. I think that would be sufficient.

If you want to increase them to a proper LA +1, then I think they should be given +4 instead of +2 to Listen and Move Silently. They should also get a bonus to jump at +4, a bonus to balance checks around +2 or +4, and some natural claw attacks. Two claws that do 1d6 damage could be appropriate.

The catfolk could also be changed to small sized and be given the benefits thereof. (-2 Str, +2 Dex, +4 hide, +1 AC, etc.)

[Scarlet-Devil]

The only things I see that put a Catfolk slightly above an average LA 0 is the 40ft movement speed and the +4 to Dexterity while having no penalty to any stats.


If you wanted to reduce the Catfolk to LA 0 I would reccomend reducing the speed to 30ft, give them a penalty to str or wis at -2 and decrease the Dex bonus to +2. I think that would be sufficient.

If you want to increase them to a proper LA +1, then I think they should be given +4 instead of +2 to Listen and Move Silently. They should also get a bonus to jump at +4, a bonus to balance checks around +2 or +4, and some natural claw attacks. Two claws that do 1d6 damage could be appropriate.

The catfolk could also be changed to small sized and be given the benefits thereof. (-2 Str, +2 Dex, +4 hide, +1 AC, etc.)

Those are some pretty big changes... If you want a small sized cat-person with claws, you might as well play an anthropomorphic cat. Catfolk have a different flavor written into them.

Catfolk already get +4 to jump, it's just not explicitly written (for every 10 ft your land speed is above 30, you get +4 on jump checks). Also technically they get +2 on balance, and +4 on move silently.

Edit: Also claw attacks that do 1d6 would be... pretty inappropriate; the standard damage for medium sized claws is 1d4; only dragons and some weird demons/etc have higher than normal values.

[Vknight]

Catfolk are fine the way they are personally if we would change them I'd use FMArthur's method

[Scarlet-Devil]

Right, and I believe we have a unanimous consensus: Catfolk are quite fine as is.

[HunterOfJello]

Those are some pretty big changes... If you want a small sized cat-person with claws, you might as well play an anthropomorphic cat. Catfolk have a different flavor written into them.

Catfolk already get +4 to jump, it's just not explicitly written (for every 10 ft your land speed is above 30, you get +4 on jump checks). Also technically they get +2 on balance, and +4 on move silently.

Edit: Also claw attacks that do 1d6 would be... pretty inappropriate; the standard damage for medium sized claws is 1d4; only dragons and some weird demons/etc have higher than normal values.

Ah, you're right. I'd forgotten about the +4 to jump that characters with faster movement speeds get. So, the catfolk already have a +4 to jump which doesn't need any bonuses.

I think that catfolk should at least have natural attacks if the player wants them. However, 1d4 does seem more appropriate for a medium sized cat-ish creature considering that normal cats have a 1d2 claw attack. I was thinking about the kobold's natural attacks and natural armor when

~

I can see how the Catfolk can move faster while Balancing or Moving Silently, but where does the +2 Balance and +4 Move Silently that you mention come from?

[Vknight]

Faster movement speed part of the bonuses it grants

[sonofzeal]

Catfolk are one of the better LA+1 races out there. Total +6 to stats, fast movement, natural armor, unique and powerful racial feats (Catfolk Pounce), and some miscellanious doodads. IMO, they're perfectly pitched to what an LA+1 race should be.

[Scarlet-Devil]

~

I can see how the Catfolk can move faster while Balancing or Moving Silently, but where does the +2 Balance and +4 Move Silently that you mention come from?

Well, they get a +2 racial (or whatever) bonus on move silently checks, and their +4 racial bonus to dexterity provides a +2 on all dexterity based skills.

[Vknight]

Now that makes more sense!
I need to do some rereading.

[Thurbane]

I think Catfolk is a decent +1 LA, IMHO. Especially compared to, say, Hobgoblins...although pretty much every +1 LA race is better than Hobgoblins.

It also depends who you ask if a race is worth +1 LA or not. Wizards has a very conservative approach (basically, any total ability mods greater than +0); optimizers on D&D boards have a much more generous idea of what you should get for +1 LA.

[Vknight]

Well optiomizers want the most from something .
And well I don't think I've met anyone that has actually even liked Hob's

[Thurbane]

Well optiomizers want the most from something .
And well I don't think I've met anyone that has actually even liked Hob's

Poor Hobbos sure get the short end of the stick, that's for sure.

For myself, I tend to go by WotC LA guidelines i.e. quite conservative. I may be in the minority.

[sonofzeal]

Well optiomizers want the most from something .
And well I don't think I've met anyone that has actually even liked Hob's

One of my favourite NPCs is a Hob. I like the idea and their culture, especially in Eberron and ToB where they get some solid respect. Stat wise they definitely get the short end of the stick, and would make a perfectly reasonable LA+0. For LA+1 I'd want to see at least +2 Str and a free bonus fighter feat, on top of what they already get. Maybe +1 NA too.

[Thurbane]

One of my favourite NPCs is a Hob. I like the idea and their culture, especially in Eberron and ToB where they get some solid respect. Stat wise they definitely get the short end of the stick, and would make a perfectly reasonable LA+0. For LA+1 I'd want to see at least +2 Str and a free bonus fighter feat, on top of what they already get. Maybe +1 NA too.

Hobbos work great as NPCs, since they have standard LA+0 humanoid CR (i.e. CR = class level, or class level -1 for NPC classes). I have a real soft spot for the race, and have had several hobgoblin villains in my games...

[sonofzeal]

Hobbos work great as NPCs, since they have standard LA+0 humanoid CR (i.e. CR = class level, or class level -1 for NPC classes). I have a real soft spot for the race, and have had several hobgoblin villains in my games...

Actually, I tend to build my NPCs by normal PC rules. I'm a considerably better optimizer than the people I game with, so NPCs are my chance to cut loose a bit. The goal for me is to build a character that I would allow as a PC, of the same level as the PCs, who can still pose a credible threat to a full party.

The Hobgoblin (lvl 4 Fighter I believe) succeeded. His feats were Improved Unarmed, Improved Grapple, Deflect Arrows, and Rapid Shot. He'd get somewhere high and try to force an archery duel, using Deflect Arrows and Cover to be nigh-untouchable. If anyone managed to get up to his position, he'd try to use Grapple to chuck them off the ledge (2d6 falling damage). The combo worked pretty well, and it made for a memorable and difficult fight for the PCs before they managed to wear him down.

[Runestar]

Catfolk also get that feat which lets them pounce. Not too shabby.

[AtomicKitKat]

Give them a bite/claw/claw at 1d4/1d3*2. Hobbos would need at least another +2 Strength or Constitution to justify their LA.

[FMArthur]

I am kind of doubtful of Catfolk Pounce's value as a racial redeemer. It's only against flat-footed opponents and still costs you a feat, something melee characters are already a little starved for to perform their specialized tricks already. I'd much rather be a human or Air Goblin with a Barbarian level than be a Catfolk. As a character-building rule I take a level adjustment if it would get me something I could not get so easily. +4 Dex and conditional pounce for a character level and a feat isn't a fair trade IMO. I'd rather be Hengeyokai if I really wanted a cat-person.