Optimization Challenge: Power Points

[Urpriest]

Alright, here's the deal-io:

I'm putting together a futuristic setting with a lot of psionics in it. The setting will be something of a Tippyverse, where various psionics-flavored RAW loopholes actually play a role in shaping the world.

This world also contains taint, and thus the Subverted Psion prestige class. However, taint is dangerous, as it tends to turn city-planets into hives of bodaks, which isn't fun for anyone but the bodaks. As such, being a Subverted Psion is illegal. Now detecting whether someone is a Subverted Psion is a nontrivial task. As far as I'm aware there isn't any spell that will straight-out tell what levels of what classes someone has, and even someone who is highly tainted might have gotten that way through no fault of their own (besides, while there's a detect taint spell I haven't found a detect taint power, and there aren't any spellcasters capable of casting the spell).

The solution, at least in this universe, is that Subverted Psions will generally have lots and lots of power points, more than a psion at their manifester level should. Luckily, in this universe there are machines that can be used to measure Manifester Level and Power Points. So if someone wants to figure out whether you're a Subverted Psion, they simply need to hook you up to some machines, measure ML and PP, and see if they look ridiculous.

So here is where you come in: this is a universe in which people optimize. I want to know the maximum power points someone can get at a given ML without Subverted Psion. Let's say for ML 1, 5, 10, 15, and 20. Assume no more than a +4 Int/Wis/Cha from race, as I don't think any of the races in this setting get better than that. Other than Tainted Scholar, anything is fair game, though I'd prefer if you manage it without vancian spells or StP Erudite. Also, I'm looking for the power point pool when the person wakes up in the morning (maybe after a few buffs), so simply being able to regenerate points all day won't do it.

TLDR: Highest possible power point total for ML 1, 5, 10, 15, 20, no Subverted Psion, go!

[Draz74]

Are +1 Manifester Ammunition allowed?

[Douglas]

First, PP from Manifester weapons are not actually part of the owner's total. They are a separate pool, drawn from separately, and not combinable with the owner's actual PP.

Second, given what this limit will be used for in game, any extra from equipment wouldn't really count. The test subject could simply remove his equipment before being tested.

[Urpriest]

Are +1 Manifester Ammunition allowed?

They're allowed, but they won't help. Each one simply lets you have 5pp to spend on a power, they don't increase your pool in between manifestations. It goes in the bin with recharge tricks: fun and Tippy-licious, but not useful to this exercise.

F
Second, given what this limit will be used for in game, any extra from equipment wouldn't really count. The test subject could simply remove his equipment before being tested.

True mostly. But some such items might be in a more permanent form, perhaps integrated into cybernetics. Using equipment to raise the pool is not unreasonable. The test probably should allow enough latitude that you can wear your gear and still not ping as tainted.

[WinWin]

It's a machine, like a metal detector. An anomalous reading would probably require the subject to empty their pockets.

basic concept. Spellthief/Wilder/Thrallherd. Base PP are not that impressive, but with Illithid Heritage, Psythief and a few power tricks the character would be able to have a normal PP pool, a stolen PP pool (frrom thralls) and a temporary pool (dependant on how high a thralls intelligence can be buffed).

I'll put some numbers down when I can be bothered. No recursive loops at the moment, everthing except temporary pool should be pretty easy to quantify. I might even put the sample stats of a Metamorphed Metamind into the mix for kicks.

[Endarire]

What about metaconcert, fusion and the Crystal Node wondrous location (+5PP) from Complete Psionic 116?

Below, I assume a doubly flawed Human who invests all his feats into Psionic Talent. I pity the fool who picks Psionic Talent so many times.

NOTE: Being a Kalashtar gets you slightly more PP. You pull ahead at level 16 and stay very slightly ahead. The difference is no more than 4 PP @20.

Psion1 @1: 29 = 2 base + 2 INT + 20 Psionic Talent x5 + 5 Crystal Node

Psion5 @5: 75 = 25 base + 10 INT + 35 Psionic Talent x7 + 5 Crystal Node

Psion10 @10: 178 = 88 base + 20 INT + 65 Psionic Talent x10 + 5 Crystal Node

Psion15 @15: 334 = 195 base + 30 INT + 104 Psionic Talent x13 + 5 Crystal Node

Human and Kalashtar PP are even at this point. I chose Human for simplicity.

Kalashtar Psion20 @20: 527 = 343 base + 40 INT + 119 Psionic Talent x14 + 5 Crystal Node + 20 Kalashtar

[Kalaska'Agathas]

If, as you admit, people optimize in your 'verse, then I don't really see how this would work, for detecting Subverted Psions. If recharge mechanics are available and commonplace, absurd numbers of PP would be common (after about level 3 or so, depending on the trick).

That said, if it's a feat based recharge trick, it could be detected via Feat Leach.

I think it might just be easier to say that in the distant past some StP Erudite (assuming they exist(ed) in your world) taught Detect Taint to some other Psionicist via Psychic Chirugery and it was passed down similarly, until becoming ubiquitous amongst Psychics, and effectively becoming a standard Psychic power.

[Redshirt Army]

Well, recharge tricks still only let you get PP back up to your normal limit, right?

So, sure, recharge tricks let you have an effectively unlimited power pool, but it won't show up as such on the test, so it would still work.

[Urpriest]

If, as you admit, people optimize in your 'verse, then I don't really see how this would work, for detecting Subverted Psions. If recharge mechanics are available and commonplace, absurd numbers of PP would be common (after about level 3 or so, depending on the trick).

That said, if it's a feat based recharge trick, it could be detected via Feat Leach.

I think it might just be easier to say that in the distant past some StP Erudite (assuming they exist(ed) in your world) taught Detect Taint to some other Psionicist via Psychic Chirugery and it was passed down similarly, until becoming ubiquitous amongst Psychics, and effectively becoming a standard Psychic power.

Part of the point of doing it this way, from a DM's perspective, is that I want Subverted Psion to be a possible player choice without it severely unbalancing the other choices. If Subverted Psions are detected by their above-average pp pools, then all a player needs to do to successfully be a Subverted Psion is to keep taint within reasonable limits so that they aren't unreasonably past what can be done without taint. And at that point they're roughly balanced with the other options available in this universe.

PP recharge tricks won't matter, as I mentioned in my OP: this machine measures PP pool at one time. Recharge tricks bring back lost PP, they don't actually increase the size of your pool.

basic concept. Spellthief/Wilder/Thrallherd. Base PP are not that impressive, but with Illithid Heritage, Psythief and a few power tricks the character would be able to have a normal PP pool, a stolen PP pool (frrom thralls) and a temporary pool (dependant on how high a thralls intelligence can be buffed).

Hmm. I'm not really sure the stolen stuff counts as power points...for one, you can only use them for manifesting, so for example they probably don't let you become psionically focused. I'll have to think about whether the machine would detect that.

The temporary power points from Illithid Extraction are a more likely candidate, though as the last genetic remnants of Illithids have gone extinct in this universe it's also not very applicable, though it has some interesting coincidences...

What about metaconcert, fusion and the Crystal Node wondrous location (+5PP) from Complete Psionic 116?
snip

Thanks for the numbers. The Crystal Node works. Metaconcert seems to create a separate entity with the pile of power points, so that likely wouldn't apply. Fusion has a somewhat limited duration, so it's unlikely that a fused entity would sit in the device and it can probably be build without taking that into account, especially since Fusion doesn't appear to be persistable.

[sreservoir]

azure talent + psycarnum infusion is not limited by your pp capacity, because it does not bring back pp: it grants bonus pp.

that said, it's a questionable reading and I don't remember what the conclusion to that argument was.

[WinWin]

I got sidetracked trying to fit Illithid Savant into my idea. Power Points per day are a class feature and thus a valid target for extaction. Of course, this hypothetical Thrallherd extracts the ability to extract from Savant thralls...

Can't get the idea out of my head. Sorry I have nothing useful to add. From a practical perspecive, Endiares Psion provides a decent ballpark figure to work with.

[Garryl]

You can eke out a few more power points with manifester level boosting tricks. Your bonus PP from a high ability score are based on your manifester level, not your level in a manifesting class. Also, despite the fact that the table ends at level 20, the actual text doesn't mention a level limit (and text trumps table). If you can find anything that permanently boost your ML (harder for manifesters than spellcasters), this will give you a few more PP (1/2 ability mod per ML).

Also, Endarire's build is short by up to 80 PP. He neglected to account for the usual Int increases (+5 level + 5 inherent + 6 enhancement), which is another +16 Int (+8 Int mod @ ML 20 = 80 PP). That brings the total to 607 PP.

[Urpriest]

You can eke out a few more power points with manifester level boosting tricks. Your bonus PP from a high ability score are based on your manifester level, not your level in a manifesting class. Also, despite the fact that the table ends at level 20, the actual text doesn't mention a level limit (and text trumps table). If you can find anything that permanently boost your ML (harder for manifesters than spellcasters), this will give you a few more PP (1/2 ability mod per ML).

Also, Endarire's build is short by up to 80 PP. He neglected to account for the usual Int increases (+5 level + 5 inherent + 6 enhancement), which is another +16 Int (+8 Int mod @ ML 20 = 80 PP). That brings the total to 607 PP.

Actually, manifester level boosting tricks wouldn't be too useful in this case. The machine can't measure your character level, it measures your ML, so a higher ML would make it expect more PP. If bonus PP weren't based on ML, ML-lowering tricks would actually be more relevant, as they'd let you get a higher PP with respect to your ML.

Given that, I should check to see if a racial Int bonus beats the Kalashtar or Human bonuses...it shouldn't by much, but it's worth checking. In this setting players could be up to a racial +4 Int from Half-Fraal Kobolds, IIRC.

[sreservoir]

oh, and I submit infinite-level kalashtar with hidden talent and no other psionic classes for your ML 1 maximum.

[Urpriest]

oh, and I submit infinite-level kalashtar with hidden talent and no other psionic classes for your ML 1 maximum.

Heh. Fair point. I think the machine can ignore this case however.

[Garryl]

If only ML counts, I submit a Wilder 1/Psy War 1/Psion 1/Ardent 1/Lurk 1/Psychic Rogue 1/Soulknife 1/Erudite 1/Monk 3/Psychic Fist 1/Incarnate 2/*Any full BaB* 2/War Mind 1/*Whatever* 5

It has ML 1, but ~12 + 2*Int + 2*Wis + 0.5*Cha PP, before race or feats (and it gets at least another 4 PP from Wild Talent/Hidden Talent). Incarnate is there for use with Azure Talent, although by the level that everything comes together more Psionic Talent feats could be better. I think there's a soulmeld somewhere that grants bonus PP, but I don't actually own MoI so I can't say for certain.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Where's all this coming from, that recharge tricks don't allow you to go past your normal maximum PP level? The tricks I know of, that is, those involving decreasing the cost of an augmented Bestow Power to less than the amount gained, have no such limit. Am I missing something?

[Garryl]

It's probably from the (reasonable) assumption that you can't ever exceed the normal maximum number of PP in your pool (barring temporary PP and bonus PP like Azure Talent). As far as I can tell, there's no rule actually prohibiting it, but I haven't exactly done an exhaustive search.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

It's probably from the (reasonable) assumption that you can't ever exceed the normal maximum number of PP in your pool (barring temporary PP and bonus PP like Azure Talent). As far as I can tell, there's no rule actually prohibiting it, but I haven't exactly done an exhaustive search.

Well, the thing is, the only recharge methods I know of grant you Bonus PP (Azure Talent) or just PP (Bestow Power).

Also, you could conceivably (at 17th level or higher) gain nigh infinite PP in two rounds by combining a pair of psychic followers (who know Bestow Power), Fission, Synchronicity, and Affinity Field. You manifest Fission, then Affinity Field. Your followers manifest Bestow Power, targeting you. Your Fission manifests Synchronicity. Your followers manifest Bestow Power. Your Fission manifests Synchronicity. Continue as much as you care to.

So after a certain point (ML 17), checking for taint by checking PP doesn't work, if you're in a high-op world.

Edit: to correct the powers listed.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'm curious, does it only check their current pp total, or their maximum pool that they wake up with or can recharge up to? If it only checks their current pp total, what's to stop a tainted individual from dumping off half his pp on buffs as soon as he wakes up? It shouldn't be hard to do, especially if you decide to allow Persistent Power (source: official d20 modern SRD). If they have an obscene ML then they could spend an equally obscene amount of powerpoints on each power. You could even have Persistent Timeless Body and just laugh at the universe. Since you can voluntarily manifest powers at a lower ML than you currently have, similar to spells, would they be able to thwart the inquisition by manifesting the equivalent of a still/silent/invisible power while they're being tested?

[Darrin]

1. Go to the Demiplane of Ectoplasm, find a Canath Tree, and grab a Canath Fruit, preferably one 9 months old so it has 17 PP. (Alternately, buy a Chaos Flask for 100 GP and create a Canath Fruit that way.) Cost: 900 GP (plane shift x2 via Cleric 5) or 100 GP (Chaos Flask)

2. Summon or call/bind a Djinn. Give him the fruit, have him use major creation to create 20 cubic feet of Canath Fruit. Assuming it counts as vegetable matter (it grows on trees), duration is permanent. Cost: 910 GP (summon monster VII) or 450 GP (lesser planar binding).

3. Bushel = 1.2445 cubic feet, so 20 cubic feet = 16 bushels. Assuming a Canath Fruit is roughly the same size as a medium apple, a bushel contains about 126 apples. 16 bushels x 126 fruit x 17 PP = 34272 PP.

Total Cost: 1810 GP (or possibly as low as 550 GP)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

How are you going to eat all that?

[Darrin]

How are you going to eat all that?

Assuming each fruit has a market price equivalent to a single-use 17 PP cognizance crystal...

81000 GP / 100 (charged item = 1/2, single charge = 1/50) = 810 GP

16 bushels x 126 fruit x 810 GP = 1,632,960 GP

...then I can afford to mount the equivalent of a continuous sphere of ultimate destruction inside my stomach.

9 (spell level) x 17 (caster level) x 2000 (continuous) x 4 (duration in rounds) = 1,224,000 GP


Mmmm... I'll bet that fruit could make some very intersting pies.

[Krotchrot]

Okay, I got to drop this line.

What's the scanner say about his Power Points?
It's over 9000!!!
WHAT, 9000, That's Impossible!!!!

[Fax Celestis]

THE HUNGERRRRRRRR

On a more realistic and plausible-without-a-willing-DM note, a set of examples.

These assume the following: We take Psionic Talent at every feat opportunity. We'll assume an 18 starting manifesting statistic bumped every opportunity, the Kalashtar race, one allowed flaw, and acquiring boosts to primary manifesting stat as demonstrated on the table.

Psion/Erudite

{table=head]ECL | Stat | Stat PP | Racial | Class | Psionic Talent | Total PP
1 | 18 | +2 | +1 | 2 | +9 | 14
2 | 18 | +4 | +2 | 6 | +9 | 21
3 | 18 | +6 | +3 | 11 | +14 | 34
4 | 19 | +8 | +4 | 17 | +14 | 43
5 | 21 | +12 | +5 | 25 | +20 | 62
6 | 21 | +15 | +6 | 35 | +27 | 83
7 | 21 | +17 | +7 | 46 | +27 | 97
8 | 22 | +24 | +8 | 58 | +27 | 117
9 | 22 | +27 | +9 | 72 | +35 | 143
10 | 24 | +35 | +10 | 88 | +44 | 177
11 | 24 | +38 | +11 | 106 | +44 | 199
12 | 25 | +42 | +12 | 126 | +54 | 234
13 | 25 | +45 | +13 | 147 | +54 | 259
14 | 25 | +49 | +14 | 170 | +54 | 287
15 | 27 | +60 | +15 | 195 | +77 | 347
16 | 29 | +72 | +16 | 221 | +77 | 386
17 | 30 | +85 | +17 | 250 | +77 | 429
18 | 31 | +90 | +18 | 280 | +90 | 478
19 | 32 | +104 | +19 | 311 | +90 | 524
20 | 34 | +120 | +20 | 343 | +104 | 587
[/table]

Wilder/Ardent

{table=head]ECL | Stat | Stat PP | Racial | Class | Psionic Talent | Total PP
1 | 18 | +2 | +1 | 2 | +5 | 10
2 | 18 | +4 | +2 | 6 | +5 | 17
3 | 18 | +6 | +3 | 11 | +9 | 29
4 | 19 | +8 | +4 | 17 | +9 | 38
5 | 21 | +12 | +5 | 25 | +9 | 51
6 | 21 | +15 | +6 | 35 | +14 | 70
7 | 21 | +17 | +7 | 46 | +14 | 84
8 | 22 | +24 | +8 | 58 | +14 | 104
9 | 22 | +27 | +9 | 72 | +20 | 128
10 | 24 | +35 | +10 | 88 | +20 | 153
11 | 24 | +38 | +11 | 106 | +20 | 175
12 | 25 | +42 | +12 | 126 | +27 | 207
13 | 25 | +45 | +13 | 147 | +27 | 232
14 | 25 | +49 | +14 | 170 | +27 | 260
15 | 27 | +60 | +15 | 195 | +35 | 305
16 | 29 | +72 | +16 | 221 | +35 | 344
17 | 30 | +85 | +17 | 250 | +35 | 387
18 | 31 | +90 | +18 | 280 | +44 | 432
19 | 32 | +104 | +19 | 311 | +44 | 478
20 | 34 | +120 | +20 | 343 | +44 | 527
[/table]

Psychic Warrior

{table=head]ECL | Stat | Stat PP | Racial | Class | Psionic Talent | Total PP
1 | 18 | +2 | +1 | 0 | +9 | 12
2 | 18 | +4 | +2 | 1 | +14 | 21
3 | 18 | +6 | +3 | 3 | +20 | 32
4 | 19 | +8 | +4 | 5 | +20 | 37
5 | 21 | +12 | +5 | 7 | +27 | 51
6 | 21 | +15 | +6 | 11 | +35 | 67
7 | 21 | +17 | +7 | 15 | +35 | 74
8 | 22 | +24 | +8 | 19 | +44 | 95
9 | 22 | +27 | +9 | 23 | +54 | 113
10 | 24 | +35 | +10 | 27 | +54 | 126
11 | 24 | +38 | +11 | 35 | +65 | 149
12 | 25 | +42 | +12 | 43 | +77 | 174
13 | 25 | +45 | +13 | 51 | +77 | 186
14 | 25 | +49 | +14 | 59 | +90 | 212
15 | 27 | +60 | +15 | 67 | +104 | 246
16 | 29 | +72 | +16 | 79 | +104 | 271
17 | 30 | +85 | +17 | 91 | +119 | 312
18 | 31 | +90 | +18 | 103 | +135 | 346
19 | 32 | +104 | +19 | 115 | +135 | 373
20 | 34 | +120 | +20 | 127 | +152 | 419
[/table]

Psychic Rogue

{table=head]ECL | Stat | Stat PP | Racial | Class | Psionic Talent | Total PP
1 | 18 | +2 | +1 | 0 | +5 | 8
2 | 18 | +4 | +2 | 1 | +5 | 12
3 | 18 | +6 | +3 | 2 | +9 | 20
4 | 19 | +8 | +4 | 4 | +9 | 25
5 | 21 | +12 | +5 | 6 | +9 | 32
6 | 21 | +15 | +6 | 8 | +14 | 43
7 | 21 | +17 | +7 | 10 | +14 | 48
8 | 22 | +24 | +8 | 12 | +14 | 58
9 | 22 | +27 | +9 | 16 | +20 | 72
10 | 24 | +35 | +10 | 20 | +20 | 85
11 | 24 | +38 | +11 | 24 | +27 | 100
12 | 25 | +42 | +12 | 28 | +35 | 117
13 | 25 | +45 | +13 | 32 | +35 | 125
14 | 25 | +49 | +14 | 40 | +44 | 147
15 | 27 | +60 | +15 | 48 | +54 | 177
16 | 29 | +72 | +16 | 56 | +54 | 198
17 | 30 | +85 | +17 | 64 | +65 | 231
18 | 31 | +90 | +18 | 76 | +77 | 261
19 | 32 | +104 | +19 | 88 | +77 | 288
20 | 34 | +120 | +20 | 100 | +90 | 330
[/table]

Lurk

{table=head]ECL | Stat | Stat PP | Racial | Class | Psionic Talent | Total PP
1 | 18 | +2 | +1 | 1 | +5 | 9
2 | 18 | +4 | +2 | 2 | +5 | 13
3 | 18 | +6 | +3 | 3 | +9 | 21
4 | 19 | +8 | +4 | 5 | +9 | 26
5 | 21 | +12 | +5 | 7 | +9 | 33
6 | 21 | +15 | +6 | 11 | +14 | 46
7 | 21 | +17 | +7 | 15 | +14 | 53
8 | 22 | +24 | +8 | 19 | +14 | 65
9 | 22 | +27 | +9 | 23 | +20 | 79
10 | 24 | +35 | +10 | 27 | +20 | 92
11 | 24 | +38 | +11 | 35 | +20 | 104
12 | 25 | +42 | +12 | 43 | +27 | 124
13 | 25 | +45 | +13 | 51 | +27 | 136
14 | 25 | +49 | +14 | 59 | +27 | 149
15 | 27 | +60 | +15 | 67 | +35 | 177
16 | 29 | +72 | +16 | 79 | +35 | 202
17 | 30 | +85 | +17 | 91 | +35 | 228
18 | 31 | +90 | +18 | 103 | +44 | 255
19 | 32 | +104 | +19 | 115 | +44 | 282
20 | 34 | +120 | +20 | 127 | +44 | 311
[/table]

Divine Mind is excluded from this for being unsalvageable garbage.

[Doc Roc]

When your enemies are delicious, initial upper bounds seem of little worth. Having some way to detect... other approaches seems worthwhile.

Body Leech, for your consideration. And foul consumption

[true_shinken]

Luckily, in this universe there are machines that can be used to measure Manifester Level and Power Points.

Something like...
"Ialdabode, what does the scouter say about his manifester level?"
"It's over nine thousaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand!"
"WHAT?! Nine thousand?!"
I approve.
Also, I found this image somewhat relevant, I don't know exactly why.

Spoiler

Show

[Wings of Peace]

Are we assuming that the subject is not abusing loops to gain an infinite amount of power points?

[Urpriest]

Well, the thing is, the only recharge methods I know of grant you Bonus PP (Azure Talent) or just PP (Bestow Power).

Also, you could conceivably (at 17th level or higher) gain nigh infinite PP in two rounds by combining a pair of psychic followers (who know Bestow Power), Fission, Synchronicity, and Affinity Field. You manifest Fission, then Affinity Field. Your followers manifest Bestow Power, targeting you. Your Fission manifests Synchronicity. Your followers manifest Bestow Power. Your Fission manifests Synchronicity. Continue as much as you care to.

So after a certain point (ML 17), checking for taint by checking PP doesn't work, if you're in a high-op world.

Edit: to correct the powers listed.

While I don't think the Azure Talent trick works, Bestow Power tricks are pretty common in this universe. I was under the impression that Bestow Power could only restore spent power points, but reading it over indeed it just gives the target power points, no caveats. And of course things only heat up with Affinity Field abuse. Though at ML 17 or so if the ruling powers of the setting don't have control over you then they'll be taking a very personal interest and would probably use more involved methods. In any case though, there's a simpler way out:

I'm curious, does it only check their current pp total, or their maximum pool that they wake up with or can recharge up to? If it only checks their current pp total, what's to stop a tainted individual from dumping off half his pp on buffs as soon as he wakes up? It shouldn't be hard to do, especially if you decide to allow Persistent Power (source: official d20 modern SRD). If they have an obscene ML then they could spend an equally obscene amount of powerpoints on each power. You could even have Persistent Timeless Body and just laugh at the universe. Since you can voluntarily manifest powers at a lower ML than you currently have, similar to spells, would they be able to thwart the inquisition by manifesting the equivalent of a still/silent/invisible power while they're being tested?

Part of the concept is that it isn't checking how many power points you have at one time, but your base pool. Back when I thought Bestow Power was limited to restoring spent points I was going to have them just use Bestow Power tricks to refill the test subject. Since Bestow Power just piles stuff on rather than refilling, it looks like I should have the machine directly test their "waking up" pool. This really isn't too absurd a concept for this universe, so I'll make it work that way. So if people could focus on optimizing the base "waking up" pool, rather than pool+bonus pp from recharge tricks and the like, that would be appreciated.

1. Go to the Demiplane of Ectoplasm, find a Canath Tree, and grab a Canath Fruit, preferably one 9 months old so it has 17 PP. (Alternately, buy a Chaos Flask for 100 GP and create a Canath Fruit that way.) Cost: 900 GP (plane shift x2 via Cleric 5) or 100 GP (Chaos Flask)

2. Summon or call/bind a Djinn. Give him the fruit, have him use major creation to create 20 cubic feet of Canath Fruit. Assuming it counts as vegetable matter (it grows on trees), duration is permanent. Cost: 910 GP (summon monster VII) or 450 GP (lesser planar binding).

3. Bushel = 1.2445 cubic feet, so 20 cubic feet = 16 bushels. Assuming a Canath Fruit is roughly the same size as a medium apple, a bushel contains about 126 apples. 16 bushels x 126 fruit x 17 PP = 34272 PP.

Total Cost: 1810 GP (or possibly as low as 550 GP)

Awesome stuff. Not sure I'm going to have a Demiplane of Ectoplasm, and in any case the fruit, like cognizance crystals, are a separate pool that can't be combined with other manifesting and so would be ignored by the machine even without the above corrections.

On a more realistic and plausible-without-a-willing-DM note, a set of examples.

Yay numbers! Thanks much.

Are we assuming that the subject is not abusing loops to gain an infinite amount of power points?

If you can find a loop that gives infinite "wake up in the morning" power points, please present it. The ability to gain infinite power points on top of a base pool is not what I'm looking for, as specified above.

When your enemies are delicious, initial upper bounds seem of little worth. Having some way to detect... other approaches seems worthwhile.

Body Leech, for your consideration. And foul consumption

Again fun stuff. Since the new power points work like cognizance crystals it doesn't cause problems for the machine. It's also not nearly as illegal as Subverted Psion, in-world because it doesn't spawn bodaks and DMwise because it doesn't lead to nigh-infinite save DCs. These dudes are definitely appearing in my world though.

Regarding the multiple OVER 9000 comments: yes, exactly like that.

EDIT: left this one out:

If only ML counts, I submit a Wilder 1/Psy War 1/Psion 1/Ardent 1/Lurk 1/Psychic Rogue 1/Soulknife 1/Erudite 1/Monk 3/Psychic Fist 1/Incarnate 2/*Any full BaB* 2/War Mind 1/*Whatever* 5

It has ML 1, but ~12 + 2*Int + 2*Wis + 0.5*Cha PP, before race or feats (and it gets at least another 4 PP from Wild Talent/Hidden Talent). Incarnate is there for use with Azure Talent, although by the level that everything comes together more Psionic Talent feats could be better. I think there's a soulmeld somewhere that grants bonus PP, but I don't actually own MoI so I can't say for certain.

This is a legit avenue, and at ML 1 is quite powerful. For higher MLs I would imagine the tactic becomes less significant/worthwhile without epic levels. One thing I was curious about in forming the thread was how this compared to just piling up Psionic Talent feats. ML 1 will probably have significant leeway, though probably a few massively multiclassed ML 1 characters will simply end up failing the test and having to explain (via more extensive tests that test HD) that they are not in fact Subverted Psions.

[Doc Roc]

There are a few different ones that give infinite daily PP, I think, but they're all pretty TO.