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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    flabort's Avatar

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    Default Chained Variants: Lets break 'em

    Thanks to This thread, I ended up wikithread-walking over to This guide.
    The basic Idea is to use Variant Class features, such as feat rouge, or the Ranging Barbarian (as opposed to raging), to qualify for other variant class features, and keep on chaining them to get what you want.
    RAW, you can do this. RAI, the variants have to be in context (AKA no taking the Totem Barbarian ACF for a Druidic Avenger (Which I think is a Druid ACF)). But, we're going RAW.
    How many variants can we stack, legally, to create the strongest class? Dragon and Dungeon magazines and web content allowed, but no homebrew.
    No taking a variant that moddifies, but doesn't remove a class feature, and then another that removes it entirely.

    Go!
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    flabort's Avatar

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    Default Re: Chained Variants: Lets break 'em

    Builds:

    Kicker Druid Build (MAD):
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    Alright, I'll start us off with a pretty pitiful build, since no one else will .

    I start with druid as a base class, Take the Druidic Avenger variant.
    I then drop my wildshape and armor/shield profitiencies in the other UA druid variant.

    It is at this point that I will point out that had I discovered such like this, I may have tried entering the recent Iron chef challenge, because the variants now give track as a bonus feat...

    I then apply the monk variant, to lose some of what I gained from my second variant, and now we have damage reduction, as a barbarian. doesn't kick in until 7th level, but whatever.
    I then hack into the spellcasting, using the Spontaneous Divine Caster, making this wacked class to the druid what the Sorcerrer is to the Wizard.

    I now have a "druid" with:
    Barbarian Fast movement, Barbarian Damage Reduction, Rage and Tireless Rage (should it go that far), Wis to AC, Rangers Favored Enemy, Ranger's Swift Tracker, Track as a bonus feat, and spontaneous casting (More spells per day ). As well as a -4 penalty to wild empathy.
    I have lost:
    Wildshape, Animal companion, use of Summon natures ally at any time, armor and shield proficiency, and access to many druid spells.

    I take it for 10 levels, so that I've got DR 2/-, rage 3 times/day, 3 favored enemies, and quite a few spells know/per day. I also take the Improved initiative feat along the way. I then take the Iron chef's 'secret' ingredient class for the rest of my 10 levels. This gets me more spells from another source, 30 more feet of speed, dex to AC, ect. Actually, if I could find one, I'd take a prestige class that advanced barbarian rage and druid casting, with more features, instead of that one, but I can't find one.
    MAD as a hatter, but it's playable.


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    Quote Originally Posted by herrhauptmann View Post
    Wizard:
    Martial wizard, get fighter feats at 1,5,10,15,20 instead of metamagic/item creation.
    Take level or two of arcane fighter, lose med/heavy armor, don't suffer ASF for certain spells. 2 levels of fighter means your third level and below spells don't suffer ASF. Good for gishes, especially at medium or low levels.
    Immediate magic- only for specialists, lose your familiar.
    OR
    Domain wizard. Lose ability to specialize, but get arcane domains (different from cleric domains, even if they share a name)


    Sneak attack Wizard
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    Quote Originally Posted by SurlySeraph View Post
    Wizard -> Martial Wizard (Fighter bonus feats) -> Sneak Attack Fighter -> Halfling Rogue substitution level (get +2d6 ranged Sneak Attack and +0d6 melee sneak attack at 1st level, +1d6 to each at each level your sneak attack progresses). No need to take a Rogue level to get into Spellwarp Sniper or to get the damage bonus from Unseen Seer anymore.
    Applying sneak attack directly to magic spells. Nasty.
    Last edited by flabort; 2011-02-17 at 09:10 PM.
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  3. - Top - End - #3
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    herrhauptmann's Avatar

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    Default Re: Chained Variants: Lets break 'em

    This could actually be a nice thought exercise.
    Though I doubt it could work well with a number of other classes. Most of them tend to lose the same thing over and over again. Like many fighter ACFs tend to give up med/heavy armor or feats. Often the same feats, level 1,2,4 and/or 6.
    Or the wizard who loses his familiar over and over again.

    Wizard:
    Martial wizard, get fighter feats at 1,5,10,15,20 instead of metamagic/item creation.
    Take level or two of arcane fighter, lose med/heavy armor, don't suffer ASF for certain spells. 2 levels of fighter means your third level and below spells don't suffer ASF. Good for gishes, especially at medium or low levels.
    Immediate magic- only for specialists, lose your familiar.
    OR
    Domain wizard. Lose ability to specialize, but get arcane domains (different from cleric domains, even if they share a name)

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    true_shinken's Avatar

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    Default Re: Chained Variants: Lets break 'em

    Quote Originally Posted by flabort View Post
    RAW, you can do this.
    Please tell me why.

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    Default Re: Chained Variants: Lets break 'em

    You are replacing one class feature with another. All you need is to have the class feature, or all of the required ones if more than one are lost, to be able to replace them.
    Certain homebrewers and third party members specifically state that you must be a member of a certain class, but most, while they state that it is FOR that class in it's title, do not state that you must be a member of that class. Twisting English a wee bit, but all good cheese does that.
    Racial substitution levels, however... Well, lets just say that unless it's the first ACF you take, you can't chain them.
    Let's see some cheddar.
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    Default Re: Chained Variants: Lets break 'em

    Anything that gets Evasion + Invisible Fist Monk. Especially Rogues, but anything. Or Mettle of Mountains from Goliath Rogue, that's a pretty sweet deal too.

    Nearly anyone could do well by taking Obtain Familiar and trading it for Abrupt Jaunt. It's especially nice for Shadow Pounce builds.

    Wizard -> Martial Wizard (Fighter bonus feats) -> Sneak Attack Fighter -> Halfling Rogue substitution level (get +2d6 ranged Sneak Attack and +0d6 melee sneak attack at 1st level, +1d6 to each at each level your sneak attack progresses). No need to take a Rogue level to get into Spellwarp Sniper or to get the damage bonus from Unseen Seer anymore.

    Druidic Avenger is nice, of course, though probably not better than what it trades out. Trade its favored enemy for Favored Enemy (Arcanists) from CMage, Track for Trap Expert from Dungeonscape, and maybe Expanded Spell List from the Shooting Star Ranger levels for Swift Tracker. Attempt to argue that the Monk fast movement is like the Barbarian fast movement so you can trade it out for Lion Totem.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thespianus View Post
    I fail to see how "No, that guy is too fat to be hurt by your fire" would make sense.

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    Default Re: Chained Variants: Lets break 'em

    You could always trade out the barb fast movement you got in the first one for either trapkiller(I think) or Lion Totem. And I'm sure you can trade your barb DR for something useful.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Divide by Zero View Post
    Hulking Hurler can get something like (10^83)d6 damage, which is many orders of magnitude greater than the number of particles in the universe.
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    Wow, it's been a while. Sorry for the unexplained absence!

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    herrhauptmann's Avatar

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    Default Re: Chained Variants: Lets break 'em

    Quote Originally Posted by SurlySeraph View Post
    Nearly anyone could do well by taking Obtain Familiar and trading it for Abrupt Jaunt. It's especially nice for Shadow Pounce builds.

    Wizard -> Martial Wizard (Fighter bonus feats) -> Sneak Attack Fighter -> Halfling Rogue substitution level (get +2d6 ranged Sneak Attack and +0d6 melee sneak attack at 1st level, +1d6 to each at each level your sneak attack progresses). No need to take a Rogue level to get into Spellwarp Sniper or to get the damage bonus from Unseen Seer anymore.
    Personally wasn't so sure you could do that by taking 'obtain familiar' as any other class. But if so, awesome.

    I really like your halfling sneak attack wizard. Don't forget to take 'craven' as well.

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    Default Re: Chained Variants: Lets break 'em

    @^: Oh, I'm not sure you can take Obtain Familiar and trade it out; but it's a plausible enough interpretation if you're allowing variant chaining. I'm sure Curmudgeon will have an iron-clad argument for why you can't if he shows up, probably predicated on Obtain Familiar being a feat and not a class feature.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thespianus View Post
    I fail to see how "No, that guy is too fat to be hurt by your fire" would make sense.

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    Default Re: Chained Variants: Lets break 'em

    Quote Originally Posted by flabort View Post
    You are replacing one class feature with another. All you need is to have the class feature, or all of the required ones if more than one are lost, to be able to replace them.
    Certain homebrewers and third party members specifically state that you must be a member of a certain class, but most, while they state that it is FOR that class in it's title, do not state that you must be a member of that class. Twisting English a wee bit, but all good cheese does that.
    Racial substitution levels, however... Well, lets just say that unless it's the first ACF you take, you can't chain them.
    Let's see some cheddar.
    I'm reading Unearthed Arcana right now and I'm not seeing anything to be gained. The very descriptions of these abilities are worded as "a barbarian may x... A ranger can y." Maybe if you disconnected the descriptions from the headings and context they are clearly delineated under (why would you ever assume you can do this?) you could get these abilities... and then not benefit from them, because you are not a member of the class that the abilities describe themselves as being used by.
    Last edited by FMArthur; 2011-02-17 at 09:34 PM.
    • Chameleon Base Class [3.5]/[PF]: A versatile, morphic class that mimics one basic party role (warrior, caster, sneak, etc) at a time. If you find yourself getting bored of any class you play too long, the Chameleon is for you!
    • Warlock Power Sources [3.5]: Making Hellfire Warlock part of the base class and providing other similar options for Warlocks whose powers don't come from devils.

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