baddies with class levels: CR?????

[big teej]

hey playgrounders,

I'm prepping for dnd sunday and the party will be fighting

if you are one of my players, and you're reading this, so help me -threats-


and I've given a bugbear and 4 orcs class levels.

I'm curious if I have calculated their new CR correctly.

the bugbear has 3 levels in rogue and I've pegged it at CR 6
the orcs all have 2 levels in fighter and 2 levels in rogue, pegged at CR 4

so, have I calculated their CR correctly?

disclaimer:
for the record
I DO NOT need advice in designing the encounter, any posts along the lines of 'orcs make crappy archers' will be ignored, it is irrelevant to the thread, and you do not have all the information.

all I ask is if I'm calculating the CR correctly.



disclaimer discliamer:
in the past I asked a question similar to this and I got responses of "no no, orcs make sucky archers, use this instead"

[Runestar]

Bugbear is cr2, 3 class lvs would be +3cr, for a final cr of 5. In theory at least.

That said, I am not sure of rogue lvs would be associated for a bugbear, ie: if rogue plays directly to a bugbear's strengths. A bugbear is more in your face, so melee classes like fighter or barb complements it better. Thus, 3-4 lvs of rogue may be worth maybe +2cr at most?

[big teej]

Bugbear is cr2, 3 class lvs would be +3cr, for a final cr of 5. In theory at least.

That said, I am not sure of rogue lvs would be associated for a bugbear, ie: if rogue plays directly to a bugbear's strengths. A bugbear is more in your face, so melee classes like fighter or barb complements it better. Thus, 3-4 lvs of rogue may be worth maybe +2cr at most?

you'd really think so wouldn't you?

but under the "bugbears as characters" thing
favored class: rogue.

wierd right?

and to further supplement this idea, whenever bugbears are used as example base creatures, its a bugbear 'rogue'

so would that make the orcs CR 3 or 4?

[Necro_EX]

Bugbears are big jerky bullies, which is why rogue is their favored class. Sure, they're big and bulky, don't hide all that well, and can hit hard as fighters, but they fight dirty. Not intelligent, but dirty.

Get flanking, sneak attack erryday.

As for your CRs, they look more or less right to me.

[big teej]

Bugbears are big jerky bullies, which is why rogue is their favored class. Sure, they're big and bulky, don't hide all that well, and can hit hard as fighters, but they fight dirty. Not intelligent, but dirty.

Get flanking, sneak attack erryday.

As for your CRs, they look more or less right to me.

hmmm........

according to my* CR calculator
http://www.penpaperpixel.org/tools/d...calculator.htm

this encounter is classed as "overpowering" for my party... which would be sad
if they you know.... all died.


*not mine, simply the one I use

[Runestar]

so would that make the orcs CR 3 or 4?

It depends.

On paper, 4 class lvs = +4cr, but in actual gameplay, I have found that class lvs tend to be quite weak for their cr. The caveat is that this disparity is more pronounced at higher lvs (eg: I peg a half-orc barb18 at cr12, with gear appropriate for a lv12 npc). At lower lvs, the cr difference is not as significant.

The orcs can be cr 3 or 4 depending on how optimized they are. They can make decent archers, though I would suggest rogue3/fighter1 for the extra +1d6 SA over a feat (unless you absolutely must have it). That still gives you space for point blank shot, precise shot and rapid shot. With 18str and 16dex, you have a fair chance of hitting for good damage.

So I think they might just qualify as cr4. What you can do is stat them up first, then compare them with similar examples in your monster manuals to see how they stack up.

Also, your bugbear rogue would need some form of support flankers if he is to be effective in melee (or is he an archer as well?). Also, favoured class =/= associated class.

Overall, your encounter might be effective if you play the hiding/ambush route, one which I have little experience with since I am a more "in your face" DM.

[RndmNumGen]

Looks right as far as CR calculations go. Keep in mind that PC class levels are supposed to be reserved for important figures, not everyday monsters(if these bugbears and orcs are important characters, well that's fine then). For random monsters, you may want to use NPC classes like Warrior, which A) Are the gold standard for advancing humanoid opponents, and B) Increase CR by only 1/2 each level, giving an equal CR creature more hit dice so while they do less damage than they would as a PC class, they're also harder for the PCs to kill.

Also remember that anything with a PC class should be using the elite ability array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) instead of the standard ability array (11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10).

EDIT: Also, don't forget that each of your ECL 4 opponents(the bugbear and orcs) are assumed to have 3,300 gp worth of equipment, a good chunk of which will be magical. This increases their combat effectiveness to be more in-line with their CR, but it also gives the PCs about 3 times as much loot as they should have. Consider balancing with some encounters that give no treasure, or tying a lot of that wealth up in consumables like potions that they use right before combat.

[AslanCross]

WOTC has admitted that favored classes have nothing to do with associated class levels but only fluff.

An ogre mage's favored class is sorcerer. It has no innate casting, only a few miserable per-day SLAs. As such, classes like Warblade or Barbarian will be associated class levels, but sorcerer levels will not be associated.

IMO, Rogue would only be an associated class level if the monster naturally gets Sneak Attack (say, Kenkus, Naztharune Rakshasas, or Splinterwaifs).

[big teej]

RE: everday monster vs. PC class levels

does being the scout/bruiser team for a dragon's army count?

(granted, its a REALLY young dragon, but still)


RE: in your face vs. ambush

the party is advancing along a road in route to the mountians (and the dragon's lair)

the band of orcs (led by the bugbear) are lying in wait in the brush on either side of the road, they'll wait till the party is inbetween the 4 orcs before opening fire.

at which point, their actions depend largely upon the parties' actions..

I'm not toooo worried about going overboard, because so far they've steamrolled everything I thought was going to be a challenge.

[RndmNumGen]

RE: everday monster vs. PC class levels

does being the scout/bruiser team for a dragon's army count?

(granted, its a REALLY young dragon, but still)

The leader might have class levels(The bugbear I'm guessing?) but the others should probably be warriors.

[awa]

bugbears have a racial bonus to move silently and a bonus to dex rouge is associated.

[Runestar]

Also, don't forget that each of your ECL 4 opponents(the bugbear and orcs) are assumed to have 3,300 gp worth of equipment, a good chunk of which will be magical.

You can't really buy much magical gear for 3300gp. Maybe +1armour, masterwork weapon and a potion or 2.

this encounter is classed as "overpowering" for my party... which would be sad
if they you know.... all died.

EL tends to be deceptive if the encounter is comprised of multiple weaker npcs. 4 archers and a rogue may be EL9 on paper, but against say, a 7th lv party, each npc will have difficulty hitting their AC (you are looking at +6/+6 vs an AC of ... 20+?

In addition, their stats suck, so the party will have no issues one-shotting them. A 5th lv wizard can't help but zap them all with a single application of sculpted glitterdust. Even simple spells like obscuring mist or fog cloud can easily wreck havoc with archers.

Unless your party is 6th lv or lower, they shouldn't have too much problems with the encounter.

Particularly, what is the role of the bugbear? If he is melee as well, he will get slaughtered.

[MeeposFire]

You can't really buy much magical gear for 3300gp. Maybe +1armour, masterwork weapon and a potion or 2.



EL tends to be deceptive if the encounter is comprised of multiple weaker npcs. 4 archers and a rogue may be EL9 on paper, but against say, a 7th lv party, each npc will have difficulty hitting their AC (you are looking at +6/+6 vs an AC of ... 20+?

In addition, their stats suck, so the party will have no issues one-shotting them. A 5th lv wizard can't help but zap them all with a single application of sculpted glitterdust. Even simple spells like obscuring mist or fog cloud can easily wreck havoc with archers.

Unless your party is 6th lv or lower, they shouldn't have too much problems with the encounter.

Particularly, what is the role of the bugbear? If he is melee as well, he will get slaughtered.

I agree. i have had many times when a calculator said that the ECL was overpowering but the fight turned out to be not so hard at all. Figuring out encounters in 3e is more art than math to be honest.

[ericgrau]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#

Using regular treasure and ability scores: CR = normal CR + associated class levels + 1/2 unassociated class levels. "Unassociated class levels" means NPC classes or ones that don't fit the race, like a half-giant wizard, until these equal its original hit dice.

Using NPC wealth by level and the elite array for ability scores: CR = LA + racial HD + class levels.

As pointed out this is just a starting point for making an estimate.

Bugbears get a good reflex save and a +4 to move silently. Hide, move silently, spot and listen are all racial skills. Make sure they sneak up on the party instead of engaging them openly. Send a scout ahead, have it return and organize a well arranged tactical ambush. Take 10s to avoid botched rolls. Throw javelins against any PCs they surprise or beat on initiative then move in for a melee flank. Keep strength as their primary stat. Rogue works fine as an associated class.

[Yora]

Bugbears are big jerky bullies, which is why rogue is their favored class. Sure, they're big and bulky, don't hide all that well, and can hit hard as fighters, but they fight dirty.

In fact, bugbears make very good rogues. There's nothing that would make them ledd effective than a human at being a rogue. They are medium size, get +2 to Dexterity, and even have a rcial bonus to Move Silently Checks, and have Darkvision too. Except for being ECL +4, they make even better rogues than humans.

[awa]

unassociated levels are for things like a hill giant sorcerer or ettin bard where the class levels add next to nothing until you get a lot of them.
not for creatures that merely lack massive synergy