PC Owning a Business?

[Voice of Reason]

Greetings,

I've got a hopefully short question for you from behind the DM screen today. I have a 3.5 Dungeons and Dragons group meeting in a few hours, and I need to have an answer for him.

The PCs are 5th level, and recently came into some gold (some are carrying around over 5,000g, most slightly less), but are still behind the written WBL table. One of the PCs had an unusual request to use with it though: he wants to invest some of his fortune into a brewery, on the condition that he be given full naming rights (he insists that he doesn't need majority control of the business, just his right to name it as he chooses). If past conduct is any indicator, he plans to use this as a front for getting into enemy hideaways by masquerading as one of the brewery's employees

Now, this obviously doesn't do him too much good so far as power level is concerned, especially if he doesn't want to buy full control, but you know PCs, they're always a crafty lot. So, I'm at a bit of an impasse: what would be a reasonable price to put on such a request such to encourage his act of roleplaying, but to discourage wanton spending sprees of such a nature?

[Fax Celestis]

DMG 2 has rules for such.

[snoopy13a]

If you don't want your player to do this then have all the breweries in town be small family-owned operations that have no interest in outside investors.

If you do allow it, since the player is hands-off on control, you can handwave whether or not the business is profitable. So, perhaps the player's scheme can work two or three times but unfortunately the managing partner at PC Brewery isn't very good and the brewery goes under.

If the player wants to actively operate the brewery, just say that running a brewery is a full-time job and one cannot be an adventurer and brewer at the same time.

[EccentricCircle]

I'd say that the cost to set up the brewery won't be very high to start off, most NPC's don't have vast amounts of gold anyway so buying the oremises for the brewery and the equipment needed to get it going shouldn't cost too much.
i'd guess maybe 100 gold although it could be more or less depending on the economy of your setting, if its in a major city real estate could be more expensive if its in a small village then buildings probably don't cost that much.

I'd say that the main cost comes from employing people to run it. take a look at the hireling costs in the DMG and see what looks like an appropriate wage.
the more people the PC employs the more produce they will be able to produce. the better equipment they buy the better the quality of their beer.
i'd make sure that the sucess of the buisness is proportional to the amount that the player puts into it.
if they make sure that they keep it running efficiently then i'd have them regain their costs over the next few months of game time and start making a profit. that way while they didn't spend the money on magic or adventuring gear that will help them to be a better adventurer initially it will pay dividends (literally) as time goes on and that can help them to support their adventuring career.

of course runing such a buisness will entail risks and can ocasionally be a hassle. but this just gives you adventure hooks.
if you have some plot about bandits in the area attacking merchant's wagons its a lot closer to home if one of those merchants is the PC in question. a sucessful buisnessman will also end up in more exulted circles. being asked to supply wine to the duke can give you an edge in any intrigue based plot as you sugest in your opening post.

I hope that this helps.

[Jay R]

This is a great way to syphon some gold off of him. In a medieval setting, there isn't nationwide beer distribution. Most taverns would brew their own. (Remember than the Green Dragon in the Shire was known for having the best beer in the East Farthing.) He's really asking to run a tavern or inn, so that's how you price it. And I think this is a great option for a player. It gives them a place to come back to that will get a reputation for having unusual people there. (The PCs probably go there every time they get back.)

Since I don't play that game, I can't help price it. The price will be significantly less than the smallest keep, and significantly more than a standard house. He will need to find a rich brewer who wants to expand, or a poor brewer who wants a tavern.

This level of business usually makes enough to make the tavern-keeper's family comfortable but not rich, so the silent partner will get next to no income from it. Nonetheless it's a great idea, and gives you an easy way to deliver any plot hook to the players.

[PetterTomBos]

Well, the idea of having huge breweries that supply the entire town/county/huge area is a kind of new invention. Microbreweries were the norm, and were just, you know, local breweries. Pubs either made their own brew or got it from som very local supplier, the beer not being filtered not lasting as long as the present variant. But if you let that historical fact slip ;)

Why not let him? It's not like it is very powerful for a 5k gp item? (It's the same if he uses this to get bonuses to bluff/diplomacy or having a neclace doing it right?) Secretly stat it up like a magic item worth his share of cash and let him get away with it :) It seems to me like good RP :) (And if you want to keep the historic-correctness in this: may give him a +huge on gather information in the one pub/neighboorhood his brew is being consumed instead? :D)

[Tiki Snakes]

So, let me get this straight - The PC's are behind wealth-by-level, and instead of splurging on shiny trinkets to increase his character's super-math-powers, he's interested in what is essentially a fluff factor with occaisional circumstancial modifier benefits?

The way I see it, if he's happy to get a minority share of a brewing business, no controlling interest in it (merely being a share-holder), in exchange for naming the business, I'd say there's no reason to disuade him.

Because not only is it a nice RP concept, it also needn't derail the action at all and allows you a way to funnel money in and out of the party as needed to balance their Wealth-By-Level.
They fall behind, (as they currently are) and over the course of a period of time, they see some returns. Later, they manage to land a windfall you hadn't expected. Well, now the business isn't doing so well and requires more capitol to stay 'liquid'. Either they invest the excess now, or they fail to get the kind of returns they might otherwise have got later (balancing over time).

As for price, let him spend what he likes on it. The more he spends, the less likely he is to do so a second time, if nothing else. It's also worth mentioning, just because he has the cash to spend on a business doesn't mean that the owner would accept the deal. He'd be limited much more easily by what is actually open for sale or investment than by any kind of price-based manipulation I'd think.

[gomipile]

I think Tiki Snakes has the right idea here.

[Land Outcast]

First of all, if the player is into it, by all means don't give him a poor run for his money, encourage it; I really like PetterTomBos' idea of stating it up as a magic item, for example:

Brewery: A brewery includes the brewhouse, with large copper vats where the stirring takes place, and the main premises, in which's cellar fermentation takes place in wooden casks. It is managed by a master brewer (Expert 5), one jouneyman brewer (Expert 3), four apprentices (Expert 1), and eight peons (Commoner 1).

The brewery sustains itself as long as no outer threats endanger the business.
The owner receives a 2% monthly return for his investment as long as he visits the business. Shouldn't the owner make himself present, profits go down by 0.1%. Profits can be brought back up (up to 2%) by spending a week in direct control of the business per 0.1% to restore.

The owner of a brewery receives a +5 competence bonus to Gather Information and Knowledge (local:brewery's area) checks.

Price: 4500gp. Monthly profit at 2%: 900sp

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Note: (Skill Bonus^2)*100 + ((Skill Bonus^2)*100)*0.75= 4375gp

The stuff sorrounding the skill bonus is flavor mostly.

If you use this you could give him returns (and bonus) based on his ownership, for instance, investing 1800gp can get him a +2 bonus and 360sp per month (owning 40% of the brewery).

[Voice of Reason]

Thank you all for your swift responses. A few clarifications:

1) The campaign is currently set in Dragon Magazines city of Sasserine. I plan to slowly move them out and away from this base of operations, but it's where they're holed up for the time being.

2) Assume that he can find a taker on his offer; I've already OK'ed the idea in principal.

The clarifications about how such operations work is fascinating, and I'll have to ask him to be more specific when I meet with him tonight. My main problem was that it appears to be mostly a roleplaying investment, but giving him even such limited control over an independent business for free seemed suspect. I like Tiki Snakes' ideas about wealth generation, and I am particularly fond of EccentricCircle's idea of inserting plot hooks into the idea; I'm getting a little tired of the heavy-handed "you are approached by so-and-so" (they're getting better, but experience has shown that the "let them loose in town and find the quest themselves" idea is not the best idea ).

[Land Outcast]

Hehe, let me add:

A brewery produces 1d4 plot hooks per month.

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[Voice of Reason]

Hehe, let me add:
A brewery produces 1d4 plot hooks per month.

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Works for me!

[Squally!]

I think its a great idea, and actually had a PC built a brewery from the ground up in my current campaign. Since most of the adventure currently centers around thier keep they own, he can look in most days on the progress of it as well. I have the math we came up for for costs and profitability somewhere around here if you want, i think it cost roughly 10k gold though to build and stock to begin with.

[mint]

I played druid who invested a significant portion of his WBL into setting up and running a law firm.
At first, we used the DMG2 rules. Give them a fair try. It works like this: you spend a lot of money buying property and hiring people and then over an uncomfortably long period of time you can make your money back.
I would not use DMG2 rules. When I mathed I think I found that I would make more money using preform.
It ends up an expensive plot device.

[Tanuki Tales]

DMG 2 has rules for such.

This.

There are actual rules for doing this, so you don't need to extrapolate or handwave or come up with something on the spot.

[balistafreak]

DMG 2 has rules for such.

This.

There are actual rules for doing this, so you don't need to extrapolate or handwave or come up with something on the spot.

*smack*

No.

Nononononononononononono.

The rules are terrible as printed. Either your business is basically guaranteed to make money, or it is absolutely 100% doomed to fail.

Oh, and it takes years to pay itself off. Realistic, sure, but not for PCs.

And all the "hooks" that it generates are completely detrimental without payoff.

No, no, NO, you do NOT want to use the DMG2 business rules.

[grimbold]

DMG 2 has rules for such.

+1
they are very useful
once i convinced my sister to play and after finishing an adventure she decided that she wanted to buy out all of a cities bread and butter and then make the council pay through the nose to get it back

[navar100]

Metagame a bit in cooperation with your players.

For purposes of adventuring treasure, such as magic items, only treasure acquired through adventuring counts. For example, if it were possible to purchase a wand or a +1 sword the player could only use goldpieces earned as part of adventuring treasure loot, not from his business.

However, his business money does matter. For roleplaying, NPCs recognize him as a business owner and treat him as such. The business can be successful and have the character be considered very wealthy. As such, even when adventuring, the player can roleplay staying at the finest room of the inn. He can entertain guests with a feast. When in a town he can resupply used up mundane resources. He can buy ales for someone to get information. He doesn't take away anything from his goldpieces. It is assumed he can afford all of this and gets it back as part of proceeds from his business.

In short, all those stereotypical things adventurers purchase that you would normally mark off a goldpiece here, a few silverpieces there you no longer bother with. The player's business wealth is like NPC wealth. The player has it and is useful as part of roleplaying, but for the significant adventuring stuff that's still only for adventuring treasure.

[Fax Celestis]

*smack*

No.

Nononononononononononono.

The rules are terrible as printed. Either your business is basically guaranteed to make money, or it is absolutely 100% doomed to fail.

Oh, and it takes years to pay itself off. Realistic, sure, but not for PCs.

And all the "hooks" that it generates are completely detrimental without payoff.

No, no, NO, you do NOT want to use the DMG2 business rules.

It is easier to fix what is broken than it is to make something new.

[ClockShock]

It is easier to fix what is broken than it is to make something new.

Including promises?

I'm more in favour of known returns than using this as a tool to balance wealth by level. You're the DM. If you really care about wealth by level you've got a million and one different ways to balance it.
Like others have said before. He's got a largely roleplaying investment that might have some creative functionality later. Encourage it!

See if he cares about monetary returns (if wealth is exponential the returns will be insignifcant later). If not handwave those and jot down some reasonable bonuses/benefits/possibilities that might crop up in time.

[cupkeyk]

I was level a level 12 Wizard/Incantatar/wayfarer's Guide when the DM let me start an inn. Since my adventuring day lasts only for a few hours a day and my teleportation powers allows me to zip in and out of my inn at will, it was a very hands on business. I investment a little over 125k gp on it and gold trickled in. i expected to break even in 200 years, but I was an elf and didn't seem like a long time.

[navar100]

If you're really a stickler for the wealth by level chart, again, only count adventuring treasure for that. The business wealth can be as high as the sky with the character filthy rich, but he can't purchase magic items with that money nor buy anything that "solves" the adventure mcguffin. That money goes to his mansion. Maybe he buys a boat and there can be a sea voyage adventure.

This is what happened two campaigns ago with my group. The party were "millionaires". The rogue was King of Thieves. My cleric was Duke of the Western Realm. The wizard owned the Wizards' Guild. For adventuring all we had and could use was whatever we acquired through adventuring. During downtime we could do whatever we want. We could say "I donate 100,000gp to the orphanage", and really mean it and have it happen. "I spend 200,000gp towards reinforcing the city walls."

The stereotype for adventuring is to get rich. If you never get rich no one would adventure. The game has evolved long since that simplicity. Nowadays people tend to adventure for a cause and wealth is the by product. Let wealth earned by non-adventuring means work in non-adventuring situations, and only worry about treasure gained through adventuring to take care of stuff needed for adventuring.

[Gnoman]

I must say that if I was in a game where the DM tried something that artifical and absurd, I'd leave.

[Baconated]

Well it doesnt seem like he wants to start his own brewery as much as he wants to FINANCE someone else's brewery in exchange for naming rights and a cut of the profits.

So have him put out feelers to the community he wants to build in (easier in bigger cities), and have him be approached by someone interested. do this over email outside f the game, so as to not hold everyone else up.

Negotiate the deal - how much will he put in, what's he expect, when's he get his cut, etc, and have him send you an update after every other game or so with his plans for either maintenence or expansion of the business. If he wants to be the first distributor, he should draw up a rough marketing plan for the surrounding areas, and you can tell him a fair value of what it'd cost.

Eventually (after a few months of real-time to make sure he's committed to it), let his brand become so popular and profitable that he can actually initiate the distributor as an in-game business.

This would increase the costs, but also increase the profits. He could also gain extra XP for imagination and continued roleplaying for his bi-monthly updates.

He could eventually buy out a major tavern or Inn in the party's home city, where they could stay and eat for free, and if the party is interested, they could ALL buy in shares in the business, and you could use that as a start of their own town.

Eventually, level 12-15ish, the party could become so influential in their town or neighborhood that they start to influence city politics, and their lackeys become low/mid level city officials, and when the avg CL hits 16, their hand-picked lackey can be elected mayor, while they can play the "power behind the throne" as it were.

Not only will this player have basically done ALL this on the power of his own imagination, itll help the party feel more like a party, and less like a group of strangers who enjoy stabbing things together.

[Rumpus]

This is an outstanding role-playing opportunity. We've had a lot of fun with PC-owned enterprises in my Rogue Trader game. You can run the characters as a bunch of vagabond explorer/pirates who somehow mysteriously never run out of money, but it's so much more fun to specify that the dynasty's money is tied up in promethium refining, a private "security" business, a really ostentatious art collection, and a traveling eight-ring interplanetary circus. That last one has come in handy on the role-playing front a few times: Nothing beats a parade of elephants when you need a distraction.

In a fantasy setting, this will help anchor the characters and give them narrative ties to the community. It's also a good reason for the townsfolk to warm up to the characters. By default, villagers probably regard PCs the same way small-town folk view motorcycle gangs: dangerous people who are likely to break things and hurt people. You could have some role-playing fun with the townsfolk warming up to the guy who owns a local business, but being considerably cooler to his "wastrel" buddies. Plus, the local sheriff (or whatever) is probably going to be pretty happy to have some heavily armed people who have a vested interest in the town to call on if he needs backup for some of those OTHER adventurer types.

Since beer probably doesn't travel well, the size of the operation is limited to a maximum of supplying everything the settlement needs. Of course, if this is a major city, that could be a pretty huge amount. A more scalable business would be something that travels better, like metalwork, glassware, or spices.

Most breweries will be family businesses that don't really want to take on money from outside. His best bet is either to find a journeyman brewer ready to strike out on his own who needs capital and is willing to take on a partner (or owner, as long as he promises not to interfere too much). The PC could also make an offer of capital to an established brewer who wants to expand his operations, or just had his brewery damaged in the course of normal adventure shenanigans (dragon attack, chaotic stupid characters throwing torches into random buildings, etc).

There's no shortage of adventure hooks to be generated, whether it's the aforementioned bandits, high-powered bar fights that need breaking up, or rival brewers that play dirty in an attempt to drive the PCs out of business. Or the PCs may decide to drive the OTHER guy out of business. A PC is a lot more likely to jump on an adventure hook protecting or expanding his own business than a random NPC asking for help.

Never read the DMG2 rules, can't comment one way or the other. However, I like the idea of statting up the business, the Gather Information check bonus for owning a tavern seems perfect, plus maybe a few ranks of Knowledge (Local) as long as people are coming in. The thing to remember is that a small business like this isn't going to throw off a huge amount of cash, so it's unlikely to affect the money balance of the campaign unless he drastically scales up the business. He may gain the ability to throw great parties and make gifts of his products, but a 6% annual cash return on investment sounds pretty reasonable, depending on how well he manages it. Depending on how much narrative time passes between adventures, that won't be a lot of cash.

I've gotta ask, though, why is he so determined to have naming rights to the beer? Does he have some disgusting pun he's planning on saddling it with?

[Max Zoren]

I'd keep the profit & loss quite abstract so you can adjust wealth as required. Also if you make business too reliably profitable the PC's will just keep buying more businesses. There are plenty of ways you can reward a PC for owning a business without giving them too much cash.

As a PC in WFRP I part owned a trading business and found the non-financial rewards were the best thing about it. Use of the company warehouse, free transport on the company riverboats, and access to the merchant’s guilds were more use than the gold I was making.

Also a good source of plot hooks, so far we've had "your company is being shaken down by racketeers" turned out to be cultists leading to us fighting a daemon in the warehouse next to ours and "your companies riverboats keep being attacked by pirates" fixing this is where our 3rd boat came from

[caden_varn]

The thing that would worry me most if one of my players asked this would be the 'naming rights' part. Which says more about my players than anything else.

As a DM, I always reserve the right to ask 'Why?' in a suspicious voice with narrowed eyes at this sort of request...

[Baconated]

I'd keep the profit & loss quite abstract so you can adjust wealth as required

Well, keep in mind that the average yearly salary for a commoner is most likely between 1 and 4 gold PER YEAR.

So, the highest of the high end hotels and inns that commoners sleep in (not rich businessmen or adventurers or royalty) would charge maybe a silver a night. So 50 rooms (HUGE inn) x 365 days in the year fully booked is 18,250 silver a year, or 1800 gold a year in oncome. Then you have to pay cleaners, cooks, servants, bartenders, pay for food and booze, hire guards, etc.. so a very very very very large, very very successful Inn that is fully booked every single night of every single year could bring in maybe 200-300g/year in pure profit for the owner.

In other words, diddly-squat to an adventuring PC who uses a 500gp gem as a spell componant.

[Rumpus]

Ooh, another plot hook: A Good priest has moved into the area and is making converts to his (otherwise positive) faith that bans alcohol. This cuts into your business. What are you going to do, brewmaster?

(I'd start by funding a couple of priest of Bacchus to come in and found a shrine with a really awesome ribbon-cutting blowout, but that's just me.)

[Gnoman]

Well, keep in mind that the average yearly salary for a commoner is most likely between 1 and 4 gold PER YEAR.

So, the highest of the high end hotels and inns that commoners sleep in (not rich businessmen or adventurers or royalty) would charge maybe a silver a night. So 50 rooms (HUGE inn) x 365 days in the year fully booked is 18,250 silver a year, or 1800 gold a year in oncome. Then you have to pay cleaners, cooks, servants, bartenders, pay for food and booze, hire guards, etc.. so a very very very very large, very very successful Inn that is fully booked every single night of every single year could bring in maybe 200-300g/year in pure profit for the owner.

In other words, diddly-squat to an adventuring PC who uses a 500gp gem as a spell componant.

Why would a commoner stay in an inn? Might drink an ale or two, but commoners are unlikely to travel enough to base profits on them, and if they lack a house of their own, thy probably couldn't afford an inn. Nobles and experts such as merchants, which make far more money, are likely a much better baseline.